"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
How would you compare child abuse to famine?
Are you talking about Guantanamo or El Salvador? Because in El Salvador civilians had neither Liberty (not wander the street without fear) nor Safety (been shot).
Also i don't know why El Salvador should use the US or Franklin as a template.
However the US still has the Patriot Act, attacked Iraq and gained no Liberty nor Safety out of it.
>public safety is the number one priority for any government
You blanket-declared that any/all governments have it as their number one priority, with no nuance I might add.
Additionally, are you somehow completely unaware that the American government is sending people to that country's worst prison, and that the current president has said he wishes to send American citizens there? This is why American values are at all being referenced here.
Nobody thus far in this conversation has been defending gitmo, the patriot act, or the illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq -- and personally I'm against all three. Yet you're creating false equivalencies, ascribing strawman views to others, and mostly avoiding any nuance to such matters as if the country's underlying corruption and dysfunction which enabled such lawless conditions is any better (which it might genuinely be, but such points ought be evidenced and argued, not declared).
Instead you've transformed it into something approximating: "now el salvador is safe and everyone is happy, there was no need for liberty or human dignity to be respected then or now."
Therein you make yourself out to argue in poor faith.
No nuance needed, there is no single country who flourish when people fear every day for their life. Not being murdered is point number one for living beings...again no nuance needed.
>Additionally, are you somehow completely unaware that the American government is sending people to that country's worst prison
That's a "you" problem, not that of El Salvador. Fix your country without killing a million (for example) Iraqis....and btw stop calling people from other country's "aliens" fkn disgusting!
>Instead you've transformed it into something approximating: "now el salvador is safe and everyone is happy, there was no need for liberty or human dignity to be respected then or now."
Now you try to make me a Fan Boy of Bukele, and to be honest your framing is childish. There was no space for "human dignity" when gangs ruled the country, now it is at least a unwritten letter.
Look, it's simple, safety first, freedom second. A dead man has no freedom, a living man has the possibility of freedom.
You're quick to lie about what I say or do. Just as quick to call me disgusting. Says a lot.
The April 24-27 2020 murder spree by gangs killed 77 people in a country of 6.3 million. Again, scaled to America's population, that's killing 4.1k people.
Everyone in a country with government gives up part of their natural liberties in order to form said government and create a civilized (safer) society. That’s the philosophy of government.
Perhaps there is something to be argued here about “essential” liberty, or “little temporary” safety, but the core idea seems nonsensical, especially in the context of a person not deserving essential properties of life because of a bad choice.
> Sure, torture is terrible
I propose we do this.
I am very skeptical. The state said that they have solved the gang problem by putting “gangsters” in prisons like this (frequently, without due process as we have seen).
I think it’s far more likely that the state in El Salvador is structured like a gang, and the level of violence is the same as it ever was.
Because i would think the Associated press makes a more or less professional job:
https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukel...
And the approval rating:
~91%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1264586/approval-salvado...
But maybe you have better data to counter that?
In a country where one can be disappeared without recourse into a brutal prison system I have my doubts anyone can meaningfully collect something like an approval rating. I for one would not answer anything but yes to someone asking me if I approved of Bukele if I lived in El Salvador.
All around the world, we are seeing many examples of consolidation of power through populism. Yes, populism is popular by definition. But history is not usually kind to those who consolidate power.
It doesn't mean everybody being arrested is guilty but if you have a say 20% accurate arrest rate and you run it over the entire population you're going to remove a large amount of criminals. Not a great way to live in general, but would lower crime outside of a jail.
By that logic, why bother arresting anyone? Just shoot them dead. Who cares if they're guilty or not? That'll stop crime for sure, right?
I said "shoot," not slash with machetes. Geez, Louise!
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/trump-wants-deport-so...
Billions would be better for El Salvador. But that's a "you" problem, I'm not you.
> While polling consistently shows that Bukele is quite popular in El Salvador, surveys also show a steady increase in fear of public criticism of the government — to degrees that sometimes match the president’s approval rating. 'There’s a sector of the population that feels better, because it’s true that we perceive more security, we’re no longer afraid of the gangs. Now we’re afraid of the regime,' says Ramirez. 'We see soldiers everywhere, police everywhere, patrol cars, and they’re arresting people.'"
Year Rate Total
2015 106.3 6,656
2016 84.1 5,269
2017 83.0 3,962
2018 53.1 3,346
2019 38.0 2,398 [Bukele’s inauguration]
2020 21.2 1,341
2021 18.1 1,147
2022 7.8 495 [start of gang crackdown]
2023 2.4 154
2024 1.9 114
18.1 to 1.9 ...that is a 10x drop.
[0] https://elfaro.net/en/202009/el_salvador/24785/Bukele-Has-Be...
nobody9999•9mo ago
Original title:
Inmates in El Salvador tortured and strangled: A report denounces hellish conditions in Bukele’s prisons