So they check all your messages at the border? Do they dump your entire phone or what is happening there?
Everything that doesn't fit official government line is an extremism and terrorism. It has been that way in Russia and other authoritarian countries. Looks like that is getting imported into US, and without any tariffs at that. I'm perplexed though why does the US population want it (i live in CA, and that doesn't help understanding the whole US population), especially giving that any of those authoritarian countries is also orders of magnitude worse than US economy-wise (even the economy poster-child China has per capita GDP just 1/7th of that of US).
The same reason the school bully and his entourage wants see your lunch thrown on the ground. It's jealousy, it's tribalism, it's establishment of a power hierarchy. It's evil.
Our country has been taken over by a cult of cruelty and othering.
"The French researcher in question was in possession of confidential information on his electronic device from Los Alamos National Laboratory— in violation of a non-disclosure agreement—something he admitted to taking without permission and attempted to conceal.
Any claim that his removal was based on political beliefs is blatantly false."
Not at all, it's much more believable than the original story. Traveling scientists frequently work at national labs.
>It is harder to believe they didn't arrest him for this.
Nondisclosure agreements are civil in nature, not criminal.
Let's not forget that the VP literally admitted to creating fake stories to influence public opinion. At this point, any statement by the administration & people under their control should be taken as evidence to the contrary, unless it's corroborated by outside sources.
Trust the experts.
>Given the well-documented history of lies from the current administration, why should we take a statement from a person under their control as fact?
The past N administrations have well-documented histories of lying.
>Let's not forget that the VP literally admitted to creating fake stories to influence public opinion.
Sounds like exactly what this scientist did.
They're still doing research, and the funding hasn't completely dried up. But a lot of the people I talked to were international students, and the gallows humor of being deported was palpable. Made a slightly illegal turn in the van? Better make sure the cops didn't see you, or ICE is going to deport you back to where you came from. Hiring is completely frozen, and there is talk of potentially cutting down or "asking" students to graduate early. I overheard one of the professors talking to another about their students who were in limbo because their visas had been cancelled. It's pretty grim.
Weariness
For example: the Canadian woman who was detained at the border. Not many people heard that she was working here illegally (self-employed while here under a TN visa that doesn't allow that).
Edit: I call it arbitrage because (oversimplifying) they manufacture a product for one hour of labor in one country and sell it for one hour of labor in a different country. It's only viable because it takes advantage of a difference in wages between the labor markets.
Regardless of your political persuasion, what's happening to folks here legally is doing irreparable harm to our country's image and standing.
We need researchers to remain competitive. China is putting out more advanced research in key sectors than we are. Most of the papers in AI that I read are from Chinese institutions.
If we think we can compete without immigration, we're going to find ourselves in a world of hurt.
And on the topic of free speech that predicated all of this: it's great that we get so offended by what other people say. It's the litmus test for how free our speech really is. Once we start punishing people for free speech, whatever their ideology or party affiliation may be, the same tactics can be used against us when the political tides turn. If you advocate for free speech and then do something like this, then you're not a free speech advocate.
<< If we think we can compete without immigration, we're going to find ourselves in a world of hurt.
The issue has been gamed well by the political class. It does not help that 'both sides' use language to further confuse the issue and score points with their chosen audiences.
That said, why.. or even how, would an American worker compete on salary. That, you will find, is the source of most of the discontent. That the target of that discontent is amusingly misdirected is quite anothe matter altogether and speaks only to the strength of propaganda apparatus in US.
<< It's the litmus test for how free our speech really is.
True.
<< If you advocate for free speech and then do something like this, then you're not a free speech advocate.
Also true.
This is with the underlying ideal that neither side has the right answers. Which was true back in the era of sane politics.
Except this doesn't really apply anymore, as we know that one side is objectively stupid, and with the modern age, there is zero to none fact checking or social responsibility.
In the same way that there are restrictions to free speech in yelling fire in a crowded movie theater, there absolutely should be restrictions on anything having to do with the popular right talking points, with appropriate jail time, as those fall into the same category now, with people taking Ivermectin for Covid and dying because Joe Rogan told them so.
And if the laws are in place, and the wrong party ever takes charge again and uses those laws against you, that should be a motivator to not let that party take hold in the first place.
1. There are plenty of US citizens that say the same things
2. This demonstrates that anything that runs afoul of whatever party is in charge will subject an immigrant to extra-judicial removal without due process. That's a scary precedent, and people all over the world are watching and learning that America is not a safe place to hinge your future on.
Regardless of how you feel about this person, there are other levers and mechanisms. Impinging upon freedom of speech in a country that prides itself upon it and revoking legal residential status is scary.
Telling someone you disagree with or even hate their ideas and their politics is one thing. Removing their rights and crushing decades of their work and their future fitness envelope - built on countless opportunity costs, some of them based on "choosing America" - is quite another.
I don't care if the person is pro-Palestine, pro-Israel, pro-LGBT, pro-MRA, pro-Scientology, pro-Church of Satan. We should not damage the American brand. We should not impinge upon our laws and constitution.
Everyone in the world should want to come here, and we should be able to take our pick of the hardest workers and brightest minds. Some of those people are Israeli, some of those people are Palestinian and Muslim, some of those people are Chinese. We should be able to get them all and grow stronger. We're supposed to be a melting pot.
You want to know another thing that's orthogonal to our discussion? I don't think we're in this place of hate naturally. I think the platforms and the marketers and the engagement algorithms and the coordinated psyops have put us here. I think people are mostly kind (or at worst neutral) to one another. We've got a whole lot of battles to fight if we want to avoid extreme polarization ripping us apart.
Oh wait, not those kinds of terror supporters? Just student Gaza protestors and Tesla vandals?
Many founding fathers had strong ties to the smuggling industry, the Boston Tea party was the kind of vandalism that would put you in prison for life now, and there was constant and brutal aggression towards loyalist citizens including stealing their land and physically assaulting them.
No amount of Hamas chants will harm the US. Hamas is only effective in Palestine because people are outright propagandized and have almost zero hope for their lives. Or they are literal children.
Funny, the last time we got all antsy about teenagers chanting stuff on college campuses, several children were shot by the national guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Seems to me, the threat isn't actually teenagers.
In fact, if you ask the FBI, the threat has consistently been white dudes with guns trying to do things like bomb federal buildings, do hate crimes, and attempt to abduct a sitting US state governor.
Should we deport all white guys with guns? I'll tell my brother to pack his stuff.
When I was young I thought liberties that we viewed as important were something that was provided to all. That it should not matter where you come from. I still think everyone should strive for this.
That's false. The way you phrased this is that I just need one example to debunk, I'll gladly take the easy win. Here it is: https://freedomhouse.org/country/mongolia
Why?
> nationalism, ideology based on the premise that the individual’s loyalty and devotion to the nation-state surpass other individual or group interests.
if your highest priority is to the concept and ego of your country, rather than how that country serves its population, then your core values align with the interest of the political establishment and machine rather than with the interests of people. a political establishment's growth and maintenance is damaged by a population's ability to impact it, which means it's damaged by democracy, which means it's damaged by freedom.
Please refrain from nonsense HN conspiracy theories. The HN algorithm is and has always been designed to encourage good behavior on the site, favoriting the overall health of discussion on the site over any particular topic and penalizing pages where participants interact poorly. Yes, that means many important topics get automatically downranked because the participants in those topics disagree on the topic strongly enough to engage in upvote/downvote wars and other signals of bad conversational behavior. That is an acknowledged result of the long term algoritm design.
HN has been very clear over the years that their primary goal is for people to debate interesting topics well here, and the overall quality of discussion on HN compared to other sites suggests there is some validity to their approach.
Don't confuse a snapshot for a trajectory.
Since you might have showdead off, I'll repeat the point.
And to add to the point, this isn't a snapshot. It's a trajectory. Look at my favorites for a list of good, important stories which were flagged here lately.
Look at PG and Garry Tan's Twitters, where they praise the DOGE team. Look at the point-blank refusal of the mod team here to permit a discussion on these false flags in their own thread, rather than just in comments. You don't need to be a savant to notice the pattern here.
There's a lot of stochastic behavior in the ranking of posts based on when people see them and how many of them upvote or comment. Always has been.
I would not travel to the US any longer, it's just not worth the risk. From the outside it's how I imagined Germany looked in the mid 30s, but streamed live in HD.
For context I'm a white British man, and whilst I wouldn't go out of solidarity and disgust at the treatment of people who don't look and talk like me even if I wasn't worried about myself, right now I would also be seriously concerned for my own safety. I wouldn't trust rogue ICE agents to know exactly what things are permissible on an ESTA visa waiver vs B1 vs B1 in lieu of H1B.
Genuinely and without hyperbole, if you have the ability and means to leave for a different country, you should consider it in case it becomes something you can no longer do in the future; even if you don't believe your government will prevent you, I suspect other countries will start making it a lot more difficult for US citizens to get visas in the coming years.
My mom has booked a multithousand dollar vacation on a cruise set to depart from Florida. They would only be there for a few days.
They are still asking the company to just fly to the first non-US stop and then board. And crazy enough the company might actually accomodate this since hundreds of people have inquired according the agent she talked to.
People really distrust the US government now.
As we Dutch say: trust arrives on foot and leaves on horseback.
We thought the Gulf War 2 was under false pretenses of "Weapons of Mass Destruction", sure. But what Trump is doing is plain betrayal of trust amongst allies.
"Oh, don't worry, all the politicians are corrupt liars, so the current administration is just like the preceding ones. Nothing to see here!"
Thank you for calling this out!
I got some useful replies there but it is still hard to conclude something pernicious isn't happening.
I wonder if an upvote / flag ratio threshold would stop some of the abusive flagging that is happening.
Famously, I think that comic #1357 is a (https://xkcd.com/1357/) great example of unintended consequences. Most average people think it's unreasonable to get fired from a typical job for supporting a given party so the idea that "free speech isn't free from consequences" doesn't really ring true. Most people seem to believe in a principle of "free speech" that goes beyond "freedom of speech only protects you from the government", you could call it the principle of open discussion or something. This whole idea of "community" moderation in this fashion is inappropriate when the actual moderation is only done by a handful of unaccountable people and executed with an invisible recommendation algorithm. When you get banned by a social media website, that's not the same thing as being kicked out of a bar. Social media websites are funded by advertising companies. The kind of people who use this comic were living in a venture-captial funded web2.0 utopia and did not realize that the town square had been privatized. Reddit, Tumblr, etc. did not see the coming wave of censorship coming in the name of advertiser-friendliness. Twitter users did not realize "It's a private company, they can do whatever they want", goes both ways when their site got bought out by a right wing guy.
I also see comics like #538 (https://xkcd.com/538/) used to justify a total pessimism around cryptography at all. Like "why bother encrypting your hard drive or data when the government can just beat you with a hose". It's not hard to see why this is a terrible argument.
xkcd is fine, it's very quotable, it's just that his well of "nerdy humor" has seemed to run dry. Most of his comics are rehashes of old ideas/jokes at this point. And when it comes to politics, xkcd just seems to tow the democratic party line, even when it's disastrous like supporting kamala or hillary.
Probably worth keeping an eye on it from time to time to get an idea what did not make the cut for whatever reason.
More on topic, I am wondering if this scenario shows that even wide-spread gun-ownership does not protect against state power (lawful or not). If ICE agents would kept getting shot during these type of arrests by people thinking they are about to get abducted by a gang and using their gun in self-defence, ICE would not do it this way. Therefore I am thinking that the agents are confident that just signalling that they represent a US federal (?) agency is enough to prevent bystanders and arrestees (?) from escalating.
ANY violation of "innocent until proven guilty" makes the entire concept null and void. ANY bypass of seeing a judge before punishment means anyone can be punished for anything at any time.
The Constitution is extremely clear that you cannot harm someone's inalienable rights until you have done due process.
You MUST treat any suspect of anything as having all rights enshrined in the Constitution until the state has PROVEN otherwise.
If you defend these deportations at all, you are anti-democratic and anti-constitution. The moment you let the ends justify the means, you threw away democracy.
Literal serial killers and assassin-wannabees are entitled to all constitutional rights before they have been convicted. The only acceptable option is if everyone is assumed a fully legal resident until you prove otherwise.
If you support the deportation of these people because they are gang members, whether that is even true or not, without them getting due process, you are the Bad Guys
mjburgess•9mo ago
plq•9mo ago