[1] https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/91544/how-algorithm...
(The context being - Arabic was associated with precision, Persian with poetry)
I’m oversimplifying and likely misquoting here so please don’t take that at a face value and put my in historical context. (I love Persian poetry, esp. early New Persian, which I find easier to understand than its later stages; I used to translate Middle Persian on occasion, perhaps because my Arabic is non-existent at this stage).
And actually I think arabic is more suitable for poetry than persian. It is more about it being the language of quran
Wikipedia [0] has the following to say:
> According to Frank Edgerton (2002), the claim made by some authors that al-Jahiz was an early evolutionist is "unconvincing"
> If certain historians have claimed that Jahiz wrote about evolution a thousand years before Darwin and that he discovered natural selection, they have misunderstood.
> "He certainly saw ecosystems, as we would call them now, in the natural world. He also understood what we might call the survival of the fittest.[46]"
> "Animals engage in a struggle for existence, and for resources, to avoid being eaten, and to breed." He added, "Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming them into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to their offspring."
Masood, E. (2009, March 1). Islam's evolutionary legacy. The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/feb/27...
I should also note that I do have a 'horse in the race', having read Al-Jahiz’s work myself. I'm well aware that some struggle to accept that such a monumental intellectual contribution came from a Black scholar—yes, Al-Jahiz—at a time when much of the world was still in the so-called Dark Ages.
Without having read Al-Jahiz's work myself I'm limited by relying on English translations and commentaries.
Thanks for the rebuttal.
cookiemonsieur•9mo ago
This is the first time in my life where a western outlet doesn't try and obfuscate the fact that many of the "discoveries" made by europeans in the the renaissance period have taken inspiration from the close to 800 years of Islamic scientific research (who themselves never failed to credit their predecessors).
Typically, when you study the history of science in the west, it starts at ancient greece (who have no contemporaries) then there's a massive blackout of 800 years and poof ! The "light" is magically turned on.
Fair play to the author for not being biased.
graemep•9mo ago
I do not know what you have been reading, but most western outlets go out of their way to acknowledge this. If anything people tend to idealise the "Islamic golden age" in the same way they do ancient Greece and Rome.
> Typically, when you study the history of science in the west, it starts at ancient greece (who have no contemporaries) then there's a massive blackout of 800 years and poof
They ignore the significant advances made in medieval Europe, and the Byzantine Empire.
contingencies•9mo ago
And India ... from which we derive our concept of mathematical zero which underpins everything.
graemep•9mo ago
Maybe a lot of people are, but they really do have to not want to learn.
contingencies•9mo ago
To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of the ignorant. - Amos Bronson Alcott, 1871
gostsamo•9mo ago
Mainan_Tagonist•9mo ago
Is this the book you base your argument on?
gostsamo•9mo ago
graemep•9mo ago
They also ignored what Europeans discovered in that period.
At the pop culture level a lot of people believe Medieval Europe was in a barbaric dark age and achieved nothing.
everdrive•9mo ago
The full quote:
"The subject here is different from that of these two disciplines which, however, are often similar to it. In a way, it is an entirely original science. In fact, I have not come across a discussion along these lines by anyone. I do not know if this is because people have been unaware of it, but there is no reason to suspect them (of having been unaware of it). Perhaps they have written exhaustively on this topic, and their work did not reach us. There are many sciences. There have been numerous sages among the nations of mankind. The knowledge that has not come down to us is larger than the knowledge that has. Where are the sciences of the Persians that 'Umar ordered wiped out at the time of the conquest! Where are the sciences of the Chaldaeans, the Syrians, and the Babylonians, and the scholarly products and results that were theirs! Where are the sciences of the Copts, their predecessors! The sciences of only one nation, the Greek, have come down to us, because they were translated through al-Ma'mun's efforts. (His efforts in this direction) were successful, because he had many translators at his disposal and spent much money in this connection. Of the sciences of others, nothing has come to our attention."
zyklu5•9mo ago
But, of course, this is one of the symptoms of the degeneration that now afflicts your particular civilization and is bringing about it's inevitable transformation to something else -- but better this than the fate of the Abassids or the Sung.
spwa4•9mo ago
The answer is slavery, and patronage by very, very rich people (who outright owned the scientists, and these in turn kept libraries of the great scientific works of the past, as trophies for the sultan, with zero public access). Oh and the fact that they recreated the Roman habit of kidnapping slaves and then selling them, sometimes an enormous distance from where they were captured. That is how Hindu numerals spread.
One very famous example is the "Blue Mosque", the greatest piece of islamic architecture for over 500 years, the tallest building in the world for a very long time (only overshadowed by the Church it was copied from: the Aya Sofia) which is a copy of a Church building by a Jewish architect (who was a slave to the sultan). Yes, minarets are a Christian idea.
Perhaps this is the reason the Blue Mosque doesn't have one of the defining features of islamic architecture of mosques: it doesn't have a catwalk, a podium for selling slaves, which most ottoman mosques have.
Then, usually during periods of economic stress, muslims destroyed their science, usually for religious reasons. Of course, this happened in the Christian west too. In the west science (specifically the copying of books by the Catholic church, then giving public access to them. No public access existed in any caliphate) recovered faster than these religious attacks could destroy it. In islamic nations it didn't. Islam was more scientifically advanced in 800 than in 1800 (or 1900). Or, to put it another way: the more actual muslims a society had (in 800 that was almost none), the less science existed.
adhamsalama•9mo ago
spwa4•9mo ago
Look up on Wikipedia, look up in history books. These are not small details.
h2zizzle•9mo ago
Most American primary/secondary textbooks (in a country where the majority of people still don't go to college). Ask the average person to name an Islamic analogue to Newton, Copernicus, or da Vinci, you're going to get blank stares. I couldn't do it, and I watched Family Guy Cosmos and everything.
Mainan_Tagonist•9mo ago
Mainan_Tagonist•9mo ago
Knowing that TV and social media do play as large a role as history books or formal education in knowledge acquisition these days, is it really wrong to question whether "the average person" is a valid point of reference when discussing inter-civilisational exchanges of discoveries.
LegionMammal978•9mo ago
These days, I've come to treat every clean-cut historical anecdote as suspect; there's too much of a game of telephone between people who want history to prove their point.
elmomle•9mo ago
The Renaissance really was taught as "Europeans rediscovered the great classical thinkers", and it was only through my own curiosity that I learned that Islamic science played a key role.
Mainan_Tagonist•9mo ago
("Gravity... ha yes, the guy with the apple","evolution... sure, we all are descended from apes, right?")
...Therefore, relying on what the average person may know to discuss whether something is publicly acknowledged and understood is perhaps the wrong way to go about this.
h2zizzle•9mo ago
This massive gap in the common understanding of the way the modern world came to be is concerning; undermines most people's model of the development of civilization is, for example, one of the things that makes it easy to drop bombs on historical sites (and the descendants of those who built them), or to ignore when other parties do the same. "Ignore what the peasants think, only elite thought matters," has never preceded an era of sustainable peace and prosperity.
the_third_wave•9mo ago
The claim that philosophy and the sciences died out in Christian Byzantium and were transferred to the Islamic world can be found in a number of ninth- and tenth-century Arabic sources, edited and translated from the 19th century onwards and mostly taken at face value since then. However, Dimitri Gutas has explained that, during this time of bitter military struggle with Byzantium in which the Arabs were losing ground, emphasizing the Muslim appropriation of the pagan Greek heritage and claiming that Byzantium destroyed it because of the ideological and political break represented by Christianity was a form of anti-Byzantinism expressed as philhellenism. Gutas has also clarified that Abbasid society appropriated Greek philosophy and science in order to address its own needs: negotiating a canonical version of Islam [1].
Wherever the truth lies I do not see any dearth of mentionings of the role played by Islamic scholars.
[1] https://brill.com/previewpdf/display/book/edcoll/97890043490...
hasmanean•9mo ago
In fact even the vertices were labelled the same, and followed the order of Arabic letters.
Shoulders of giants indeed. Shoulders of jazari.
Mainan_Tagonist•9mo ago
The transmission of knowledge between civilizational blocks is fairly well documented (I recently read Jacques Le Goff on this particular topic), and what is owed to the Islamic civilization is no secret.
For those interested in comparable technical developments in Europe around the same time, for the middle ages were not as dark as usually portrayed, I recommend reading Jean Gimpel's The Medieval Machine (whom Ken Follett relied on extensively for "The Pillars of the Earth") and David Landes' A Revolution in Time.
mangodrunk•9mo ago
julienchastang•9mo ago