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US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

https://www.theregister.com/2025/05/12/us_copyright_office_ai_copyright/
160•croes•4h ago

Comments

andy99•1h ago
Two different issues that while apparently related need separate consideration. Re the copyright finding, does the US copyright office have standing to make such a determination? Presumably not since various claims about AI and copyright are before the courts. Why did they write this finding?
kklisura•1h ago
> The Office is releasing this pre-publication version of Part 3 in response to congressional inquiries and expressions of interest from stakeholders

They acknowledge the issue is before courts:

> These issues are the subject of intense debate. Dozens of lawsuits are pending in the United States, focusing on the application of copyright’s fair use doctrine. Legislators around the world have proposed or enacted laws regarding the use of copyrighted works in AI training, whether to remove barriers or impose restrictions

Why did they write the finding: I assume it's because it's their responsibility:

> Pursuant to the Register of Copyrights’ statutory responsibility to “[c]onduct studies” and “[a]dvise Congress on national and international issues relating to copyright,”...

All excerpts are from https://www.copyright.gov/ai/Copyright-and-Artificial-Intell...

_heimdall•1h ago
Given that the issue at hand is related to potential misuse of copyright protected material, it seems totally reasonable for the copyright office to investigate and potentially act to reconcile the issue.

Sure the courts may find its out of their jurisdiction, but they should act as they see fit and let the courts settle that later.

bgwalter•1h ago
The US Supreme court has complained on multiple occasions that it is forced to do the work of the legislative.

Why could a copyright office not advise the congress/senate to enact a law that forbids copyrighted material to be used in AI training? This is literally the politicians' job.

9283409232•18m ago
Part of Congresses power is to defer that agencies it has created. Such as the US Copyright Office.
megamix•1h ago
Tyrants, Kings, Emperors or modern politicians - I mean what’s the difference?
HenryBemis•1h ago
Tyrants & Kings were forced on us and we could only remove with at the cost of blood.

Politicians, they try to crack as fewer eggs as possible, telling us they are our friends, and we believe them. Now then.. some do more good than bad, some do more bad than good. But on the other hand something that is _good for me_ is _bad for you_ and vice versa. Politicians are just the means to move the needle juuuuuuust a little bit, so show a change, but never make a drastic one. The cost of drastic changes is re-election. And this is the bread and butter of politicians (yes, I am over-over-simplifying but this is human history and a lot will be left out in a comment).

codr7•1h ago
The chains become more subtle with time, but start pulling a tiny bit and it's the same chains with the same people holding them. The illusion of a choice is a pretty amazing pacifier.
seper8•1h ago
(this is duplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43960518)
prvc•1h ago
The released draft report seems merely to be a litany of copyright holder complaints repeated verbatim, with little depth of reasoning to support the conclusions it makes.
raverbashing•1h ago
I don't have much spare sympathy here honestly
bgwalter•1h ago
The required reasoning is not very deep though: If an AI reads 100 scientific papers and churns out a new one, it is plagiarism.

If a savant has perfect recall, remembers text perfectly and rearranges that text to create a marginally new text, he'd be sued for breach of copyright.

Only large corporations get away with it.

scraptor•47m ago
Plagiarism is not an issue of copyright law, it's an entirely separate system of rules maintained by academia. The US Copyright Office has no business having opinions about it. If a AI^W human reads 100 papers and then churns out a new one this is usually called research.
ta1243•23m ago
Only when those papers are referenced
dfxm12•23m ago
Please argue in good faith. A new research paper is obviously materially different from "rearranging that text to create a marginally new text".
shkkmo•15m ago
The comment is responding to this line:

> If an AI reads 100 scientific papers and churns out a new one, it is plagiarism.

That is a specific claim that is being directly addressed and pretty clearly qualifies as "good faith".

int_19h•14m ago
"Rearranging text" is not what modern LLMs do though, unless you specifically ask them to.
satanfirst•46m ago
That's not logical. If the savant has perfect recall and makes minor edits they are like a digital copy and aren't really like a human, neural network or by extension any other ML model that isn't over-fitted.
tantalor•37m ago
If AI really could "churn out a new scientific paper" we would all be ecstatically rejoicing in the dawning of an age of AGI. We are nowhere near that.
viraptor•28m ago
We're relatively close already https://openreview.net/pdf?id=12T3Nt22av And we don't need anything even close to AGI to achieve that.
glial•34m ago
It reminds me of the old joke.

"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."

shkkmo•25m ago
> If a savant has perfect recall, remembers text perfectly and rearranges that text to create a marginally new text, he'd be sued for breach of copyright.

Any suits would be based on the degree the marginally new copy was fair use. You wouldn't be able to sue the savant for reading and remembering the text.

Using AI to creat marginally new copies of copyrighted work is ALREADY a violation. We don't need a dramatic expansion of copyright law that says that just giving the savant the book to real is a copyright violation.

Plagarism and copyright are two entirely different things. Plagarism is about citations and intellectual integrity. Copyright is a about protecting economic interests, has nothing to to with intellectual integrity, and isn't resolved by citing the original work. In fact most of the contexts where you would be accused of plagarism, would be places like reporting, criticism, education or research goals make fair use arguments much easier.

Maxatar•18m ago
Plagiarism isn't illegal, has nothing to do with the law.
shkkmo•12m ago
Plagarism is often illegal. If you use plagarism to obtain a financial or other benefit, that can be fraud.
nadermx•36m ago
Not only does it read like a litany[0]. It seems like the copyright holders are not happy with how the meta case is working through court and are trying to sidestep fair use entirely.

https://www.copyright.gov/ai/Copyright-and-Artificial-Intell...

whamlastxmas•11m ago
The reasoning is orange man bad
imafish•1h ago
news flash - the billionaires don't care about you.
achrono•1h ago
If anyone was skeptical of the US government being deeply entrenched with these companies in letting this blatant violation of the spirit of the law [1] continue, this should hopefully secure the conclusion.

And for the future, here's one heuristic: if there is a profound violation of the law anywhere that (relatively speaking) is ignored or severely downplayed, it is likely that interested parties have arrived at an understanding. Or in other words, a conspiracy.

[1] There are tons of legal arguments on both sides, but for me it is enough to ask: if this is not illegal and is totally fair use (maybe even because, oh no look at what China's doing, etc.), why did they have to resort to & foster piracy in order to obtain this?

whycome•1h ago
What’s your reading of the spirit of the law?
NitpickLawyer•42m ago
> If anyone was skeptical of the US government being deeply entrenched with these companies in letting this blatant violation of the spirit of the law [1] continue, this should hopefully secure the conclusion.

European here, but why do you think this is so clear cut? There are other jurisdictions where training on copyrighted data has already been allowed by law/caselaw (Germany and Japan). Why do you need a conspiracy in the US?

AFAICT the US copyright law deals with direct reproductions of a copyrighted piece of content (and also carves out some leeway with direct reproduction, like fair use). I think we can all agree by now that LLMs don't fully reproduce "letter perfect" content, right? What then is the "spirit" of the law that you think was broken here? Isn't this the definition of "transformative work"?

Of note is also the other big case involving books - the one where google was allowed to process mountains of books, they were sued and allowed to continue. How is scanning & indexing tons of books different than scanning & "training" an LLM?

AlotOfReading•5m ago
Google asserted fair use in that case, which is an admission of (allowed) copyright infringement. They didn't turn books into a "new form", they provided limited excerpts that couldn't replace the original usage and directly incentivized purchases through normal sales channels while also providing new functionality.

Contrast that with AI companies:

They don't necessarily want to assert fair use, the results aren't necessarily publicly accessible, the work used isn't cited, users aren't directed to typical sales channels, and many common usages do meaningfully reduce the market for the original content (e.g. AI summaries for paywalled pages).

It's not obvious to me as a non-lawyer that these situations are analogous, even if there's some superficial similarity.

codr7•1h ago
As if it wasn't already obvious to anyone paying attention that we're going to eat this shit voluntarily or kicking and screaming.
brador•59m ago
Lifetime for human copyright, 20 years for corporate copyright. That’s the golden zone.
Zambyte•38m ago
Zero (0) years for corporate copyright, zero (0) years for human copyright is the golden zone in my book.
umanwizard•31m ago
Why?
Zambyte•22m ago
It took me a while to be convinced that copyright is strictly a bad idea, but these two articles were very convincing to me.

https://drewdevault.com/2020/08/24/Alice-in-Wonderland.html

https://drewdevault.com/2021/12/23/Sustainable-creativity-po...

SketchySeaBeast•5m ago
The first article is saying that "Copyright is bad because of corporations", and I can kind of get behind that, especially the very long term copyrights that have lost the intent, but the second article says that artists will be happier without copyright if we just solve capitalism first.

If an artist produces a work they should have the rights to that work. If I self-publish a novel and then penguin decides that novel is really good and they want to publish it, without copyright they'd just do that, totally swamping me with their clout and punishing my ever putting the work out. That's a bad thing.

whamlastxmas•6m ago
Because the concept of owning an idea is really gross. Copyright means I can’t write about whatever I want in my own home even if I never distribute it or no one ever sees it. I’m breaking the law by privately writing Harry Potter fanfic in my journal or whatever. Copyright is supposed to be about encouraging intangibles, and the reality is that it only massively stifles it
GuB-42•8m ago
The issue with lifetime (vs something like lifetime + X years) is that of inheritance.

Assuming you agree with the idea of inheritance, which is another topic, then it is unfair to deny inheritance of intellectual property. For example if your father has built a house, it will be yours when he dies, it won't become a public house. So why would a book your father wrote just before he died become public domain the moment he dies. It is unfair to those doing who are doing intellectual work, especially older people.

If you want short copyright, is would make more sense to make it 20 years, human or corporate, like patents.

tempeler•57m ago
I think, A new chapter is about to begin. It seems that in the future, many IPs will become democratized — in other words, they will become public assets.
ahmeni•55m ago
If only there was some sort of term for fake democracy where you're actually just there to plunder resources.
gadders•50m ago
Congress? https://www.capitoltrades.com/
tempeler•40m ago
This idea does not belong to me. If lawmakers and regulators allow companies to use these IPs, how can you keep ordinary people away from them? Something created by AI is regarded as if it was created from scratch by human hands. that's reality.
AlexandrB•47m ago
Public assets as long as you pay your monthly ChatGPT bill.
SketchySeaBeast•45m ago
"Democratized" as in large corporations are free to ingest the IPs and then reinterpret and censor them before they feed their version back to us, with us never having free access to the original source?
numpad0•25m ago
Oh yeah. It's the Cultural Revolution all over again.
throw0101c•50m ago
See "Copyright and Artificial Intelligence Part 3: Generative AI Training" (PDF):

* https://www.copyright.gov/ai/Copyright-and-Artificial-Intell...

thomastjeffery•43m ago
> The remarks about Musk may refer to the billionaire’s recent endorsement of Twitter founder Jack Dorsey’s desire to “Delete all IP law"...

Yes please.

Delete it for everyone, not just these ridiculous autocrats. It's only helping them in the first place!

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