https://github.com/google/chicago-brick
(I contributed a little "Penrose-tile" module during my time there, though I never got it in production :P)
Can you comment on the topic?
Provide a framework or built-in libs which allow you to build a number of use cases (JSON API, etc) with as little dependencies as possible. That would be something much more valuable than becoming a Node replacement for the NPM ecosystem.
Deno seems to be spending a lot of time and money into Node compat which so far (afaik) hasn't produced results.
These days there's almost nothing you can't do in Deno that you can do in Node. If you think there is, please reply here but I think that time has passed.
My use case was trying to run Playwright to scrape a site, copy the resultant HTML into jsdom, then run Mozilla's `readability` module on that to get a summary of the page. I found a replacement for Playwright (astral), and `readability` seems to be runtime agnostic as long as it has access to DOM APIs, but jsdom doesn't work with Deno yet.
I'd love to hear if there's an alternative to jsdom that I could use, because I unfortunately can't switch entirely over to NodeJS in this particular project, so either I find a replacement server-side DOM library, or I need to juggle two runtimes for different parts of the project. :/
// from https://gist.github.com/kt3k/6123515ff5d1e167f82dfe4aa12ee5d9
import { JSDOM } from "https://jspm.dev/jsdom";
const doc = new JSDOM(`<!DOCTYPE html><p>Hello world</p>`);
console.log(doc.window.document.querySelector("p").textContent);
deno run 'https://gist.githubusercontent.com/kt3k/6123515ff5d1e167f82dfe4aa12ee5d9/raw/f27520c629e56ab6e53e411c455ecc289300bb28/jsdom-in-deno.ts'
I'd need more info about your problem but I'm not convinced that Deno's the problem and if there is one.
All of the simple cases I've tried seem to work fine, e.g:
import { JSDOM } from "npm:jsdom";
const dom = new JSDOM(
`<!DOCTYPE html><p>Hello world <img src="https://example.com/logo.svg" /></p>`,
);
console.log(dom.window.document?.querySelector("p")?.textContent); // "Hello world"
console.log(dom.window.document?.querySelector("img")?.getAttribute("src")); // "https://example.com/logo.svg"I'll try again with a clearer head tomorrow, and maybe if I figure stuff out I can create a proper reproduction, but right now I don't know how to reproduce anything because it doesn't seem like my local environment is consistently reproducible, let alone trying to create something that would work on other machines. I'm surprised at how poor this behaviour is — I thought a big part of Deno@2 was to fix these sorts of dependency issues.
The NPM compatibility madness really does kill it for me. Probably something to do with taking VC money and “expanding addressable market” or whatever.
Now you can tap into the npm ecosystem when needed, but still use deno-first libraries as you please. If you don't like npm, then you can ignore it entirely
But what if Deno had invested all that Node compat effort into something else?
So NodeJS can do pretty much everything Deno can, but it also can do all the stuff it could already do.
It is not: the post talks about the development progress of their web framework, which seems to be their take on server-rendered pages with islands of interactivity. Kinda like Astro or maybe like Remix.
People think they are being gentle but it has the opposite effect now.
I believe that Fresh is pretty ideal for AI-paired web development since so much information about the application structure is easily parsable just by iterating through the file system (routes are folders and files). I have been using Claude Desktop MCP server with Fresh 1.0 and Claude can "read" the application pretty well.
Deno itself, though, is still a very comfy js environment. I pretty much use it for all js/ts that doesn't run in the browser (I also use it for build steps of said browser code). It just kinda has everything I need/want, so I don't have to add too many dependencies, and don't have to muck around in build/env stuff. Just feels kinda easy.
I (tried) buildinv the same service in Go, Node(Fastify), Deno(Hono) and Rust (Axum).
Honestly my worst experience was with Deno. It's being built and shipped so fast even the fragmentation doesn't make sense. Some packages are on JSR and others on their own registry. Some NPM packages could be found on JSR but they'd be very out of date, locating docs was very difficult for those individual packages. The new deno.json format was very confusing, was it opt-in or wasn't it. Compatibility may have been fixed but I couldn't get too far with building because of the difficulty in finding upto date packages. They abandoned their own postgres client, which isn't on JSR either.
Now compare that with Rust, which doesn't have anything in it's std-lib to help you connect to a database, setup an HTTP server. However the ecosystem is cohesive enough, maybe partly due to tokio, that you could stumble your way to a recently/library maintained example project on GitHub.
At the end of it I honestly did not see much of a benefit to my development experience shifting to Deno. Projects where I could see some of those devex improvements are too large to migrate.
fwiw, re finding up-to-date packages, you can also pull in npm dependencies. idk what you found confusing about the deno.json, but it's definitely optional; you can just write imports directly in the .js file if you want. I often make single-file scripts to run some npm package over a local file.
The problem with making something as important as a package file optional it makes it very confusing for new users to get started because a variety of tutorials and getting started guides end up having a lot variation between them.
“We’re no longer building atoms, molecules and components, we’ve moved on to islands, continents and tectonic plates”
What is Turbolinks? What is Sprockets? How does it relate to Turbo Frames or Turbo Streams? Is it different from Turbo or a part of it? Is it an addon? What are Cables? Why Action Cable? Is it different from Hotwire? Is it the same? Should we take Webpacker, Shakapacker — or Propshaft, after all? Do we use Puma or Unicorn? Devise, CanCanCan, Pundit? Poltergeist, Cucumber, Capybara. PaperTrail, Zeitwerk, Apartment. Fuck me, Rails.
It powers my friend's canadian roasted coffee business website, available here: https://torque.cafe/en/
Then you don’t have to waste your energy reading corporate waffle.
Disruptors gonna disrupt even when broke AF and shutting down.
For this post in particular, "An Early Look at Fresh 2" would make a better title, albeit with less "clickbait potential" (well, people love drama). With a "An Update on X" headline you both fail to inform and give the impression that you are killing the thing.
The number of folks who would infer that is a fraction of a fraction of those who wouldn't, so please do keep titling status updates appropriately, as is done here.
Scroll down to "Stream HTML straight from the server" -> Click "Lemonade" recipe link -> Click "Learn more about Partials" Button -> Press back button -> Press back button again -> Press forward button = The raw Lemonade recipe HTML partial gets rendered instead of the full page.
Or just go here straight from this link: https://fresh.deno.dev/recipes/lemonade
Maybe they should add some logic to prevent being able to load partials as their own page.
I’m not even sure I’d have confidence in adopting Fresh, but I definitely was using it as a canary for the Deno org’s health. If they can’t maintain their flagship front end framework, after all, they must be circling the drain?
If that’s not the situation, I’m bewildered by their approach to communication.
Anyway, I’m still left wondering if Deno will be around in 18mo. It’s generally a nice DX, but so risky to bet on. I want them to succeed, but fear they won’t.
Imustaskforhelp•2mo ago
This seems an attempt to show to the world that its not that, but I would say that it's still not working.
Deno deploy, their product is better on supabase or even bunny cdn which provides more locations than deno itself.
Bun also exists. And did we forget about node itself?
Cloudflare workers is a beast if we can work with non standards/ I personally feel a little bit that some code meant for node won't work on cf as much as it would on deno
sync•2mo ago
Deno's Decline - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43863937 - May 2025 (157 comments)
Imustaskforhelp•1mo ago
I might add it in the original comment attributing it to you as well. Thanks again.
Edit: wait I can't edit my original comment, I think it might be because its already commented on by people, so yeah this is the only way for people to find out about it.
pjmlp•2mo ago
Eventually the reference implementation gets the features that are more relevant, and we move on.
Imustaskforhelp•1mo ago
Its a net positive for everybody except the people who are working in alternative implementations unless they are being sponsored or they are doing it for fun.
As a company, I am sorry, but I just see no ways of pure revenue once node improves
CharlesW•2mo ago
There are plenty of moribund open source projects. But looking at this month's 2.3 release, Deno's future strikes me as the opposite of bleak.
As for Deno Deploy, sure —¹ it may fail. But regarding the Deno folks scaling their footprint in response to changes like real-world usage patterns, adoption timelines, our rapidly-contracting economy, or whatever, that's a far better response than ostriching in the longer run.
¹ This em-dash was lovingly hand-crafted by a Mac user. Please don't em-shame.
egglemonsoup•2mo ago
CharlesW•2mo ago
tough•2mo ago
int_19h•2mo ago
Imustaskforhelp•1mo ago
I would love deno to win, maybe be even faster than bun and maybe help with permissions a little bit more as I played around with deno scripts and it quickly devolved into a permission nightmare from my personal experience, maybe I am inexperienced, but I didn't had the issues in bun.
lambtron•2mo ago
Imustaskforhelp•1mo ago
Thanks for the clarification.
I have some questions though:-
Aside from the fact that deno allows npm compatibility, how is deno deploy any better than cloudflare hosting which I currently use, since cloudflare workers also have some compatibility layer I suppose and cloudflare workers can and do host applications and edge functions both.
I can understand if things like nextjs which don't run as smoothly on cf workers, if at all (I haven't tried them but I do know that its easier to run nextjs on vercel than any other competitor), but nextjs can run easily on deno, so that might be a really big niche tbh
But as a sveltekit user, here's my opinion I have deployed so many sveltekit websites to cloudflare workers, 100k limit never disappoints me or limits me, cf workers also has a kv which is good for simple databases. I am seriously considering to always use cloudflare workers since currently I am just a student and it gives me 100k requests per month limit and after that its still really really cheap.
I had compared deno's tier and cf tier's sometime ago and cf was the winner there, I don't know what's the situation now but I am willing to hear.
Cf workers wrangler developer-experience is genuinely decent in my opinion, not as easy as deno deploy I suppose but still its worth it given all the previous points.
Deno is really nice compared to node, I in fact was the guy who watched fireship video and then the deno video itself and then I legit went to my brother's room knocking on his door (my brother is also a coder, in fact he knows his stuff whereas I am just this 16 year old student) and I legit wanted him to try out deno. But I am having mixed opinions now and I don't mean any defamation of deno team who are really nice and kind for what I've seen.
Have a really nice day Andy. Hope deno achieves success.