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Open in hackernews

Ask HN: How would you fund a tech cooperative owned by workers and users?

8•prrada•8mo ago
I built a marketplace for therapist friends (sana.so) and we're trying to turn it into a proper cooperative. Inspired by David Graeber's anarchist ideas, I want to create a tech tool that's genuinely owned by both users (therapists) and workers, with direct voting rather than committees (Voting in committee members doesn't feel democratic enough for me). What models or examples should we investigate for funding and governance?

Comments

toomuchtodo•8mo ago
You’d bootstrap, and then have future employees buy into a restricted share class (you could also take on debt to fund and personally guarantee until you can pay it back with future revenue, or find someone wealthy to write an investment check [1]). You're aligning incentives and sharing in the economic success, but using share restrictions to prevent, broadly speaking, shenanigans that are not aligned with your desired outcome. You wouldn't want shares transferred without board approval, for example. Craigslist was a cautionary tale about this [2], make sure your agreements are drafted to withstand potential adversaries. The culture should be clearly communicated about this when hiring and onboarding.

Check out Certified EO [3] [4], they can help you. Maybe reach out to DHH or Jason Fried on this too, 37signals is a similar model of staying small and and profitable [5] [6].

[1] https://medium.com/signal-v-noise/the-deal-jeff-bezos-got-on...

[2] https://www.delawarelitigation.com/2010/09/articles/chancery...

[3] https://www.certifiedeo.com/

[4] https://www.certifiedeo.com/why-employee-ownership

[5] https://x.com/jasonfried/status/1887964677344489574 | https://archive.today/dZwKz

[6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=171325

prrada•8mo ago
Wow great stuff, thank you toomcuhtodo. I've been enjoying digging through it. The 37signals approach was something a friend recommended, but I knew nothing of the certified EO and craigslist problems. Specially appreciated jasonFried's explanation of their tenure based dividend system.
jonahbenton•8mo ago
Lot of work happened in the last 5-10 years in the web3 space around tech-enabled participatory governance, with some funding backdrop because it's on top of a crypto platform. ENS is kind of the poster child

https://docs.ens.domains/learn/protocol/

In terms of participation incentive models I like pointing people to slicing pie. The concept is simple enough and can learned from their free materials. Helpful mental model quantifying sweat "equity" where equity can be voting shares, or actual financial shares:

https://slicingpie.com/

In terms of governance policy that is specific to your domain- what are the incentives and measures and countermeasures to ensure good behavior from the different roles of participants particular to therapy- there are certainly codes of conduct in the therapy space but probably this is going to be new work for you.

I have read quite a bit in the anarchy space, including Graeber, and Chomsky's references and pull-outs from the moments during the Spanish Civil War when there was real movement here- regret to say that the prior thinking does not strike me as anywhere near sufficient to serve as models for the current shape of the world. A lot of new work has to get laid down for these to be real things.

Democracy is a fragile mechanism that as we see can collapse quickly under lots of limited resource regimes and when community trust is fractured. High trust does not scale. Low trust is needed to scale and professionalize.

But +1, think now is a good time for worker-controlled services to serve as a growing alternative to platform controlled services (just saw first Amazon therapy ad today, like, are you effing kidding me?)

Good luck.

prrada•8mo ago
Yeah, lol, just saw the amazon thing. I find therapy to be a bit of a spiritual experience and although companies can provide a lot, a more human connection has never been one of them for me. Also, so far every therapist I know has been either heavily squeezed by an insurance intermediary or drowning in task while building their own thing, can't imagine an amazon anything helping them help us.

Yeah, I was excited about the possibilities of something different with Crypto, but it always seems to be more complication than it's worth. That said the true ownership of the name part with ENS is epic. Good stuff, thank you.

jonahbenton•8mo ago
+1 to all that. My business is a kind of consulting collective, high trust, people who have known each other for decades. High bar for participation. Careful to ensure everyone stays on the right side of the IRS "self-employed" line, while trying to be coordinated and efficient about common expenses and benefits. Cooperative but not a democracy or cooperative per se- having participated in coops including the famous Park Slope Food Coop- think the low-trust semi-informed cooperative democracy is really, really hard to make work when the context ultimately is business and making a living. We have looked very closely at the web3 and especially programmatic stablecoin machinery, there are so many ways having little structures like that would help with risk and cash flow- like, being able to easily self-set up escrow structures with clients who may themselves have cash flow risk. Could definitely do it outside the US, adoption inside probably never get over the hump. Therapy is not so much project based but some common insurance and billing tooling, and then tax reporting, would be beneficial. Anyway, hope you are able to get traction.
prrada•8mo ago
Thank you, I've been marinating in this and It's helped me find what I hope will bring a balanced approach.
bruce511•8mo ago
From a funding perspective I suppose it's pretty simple - like with all businesses the owners pony up the cash.

The regular model is that you need cash, so you go looking for it, selling (part) ownership.

In this case you have pre-determined the owners, and presumably their share %, so presumably they're putting up the cash.

Alternatively you can go with a non-ownership approach. Ie a loan. That'll vote either an interest rate, and usually dome collateral (which I guess also comes from the owners.) If you go this route I recommend you get a lawyer to clearly explain the implications of liability - one participant can easily be on the hook for the whole loan, not just their share of it. They'd be much better off taking small individual loans to "buy their share " than participating in a group loan.

Future admin work may also be affected by your governance model. There will be times when all owners need to sign, and you need to thus have mechanisms to strip ownership if the person leaves, or dies. Shareholdings which become part of their estate, and are inherited are a concern.

In short, you need a lawyer well versed in these structures. Not just internet advice.

I applaud your vision, but you need to think very carefully through all aspects of this.

prrada•8mo ago
Thank you and I agree. Just reached out to a few worker coops I found about their lawyers to find someone with experience in it. For now we've been running it on an LLC and just product testing until we know we got something to not get ahead of ourselves.