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Ollama violating llama.cpp license for over a year

https://github.com/ollama/ollama/issues/3185
131•Jabrov•5h ago

Comments

rlpb•4h ago
I don't see how this claimed issue is valid.

https://github.com/ollama/ollama/blob/main/llama/llama.cpp/L... says:

"The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software."

The issue submitter claims:

"The terms of the MIT license require that it distribute the copyright notice in both source and binary form."

But: a) that doesn't seem to be in the license text as far I can see; b) I see no evidence that upstream arranged to ship any notice in their binaries, so I don't see how it's reasonable to expect downstreams to do it; and c) in the distribution world (Debian, etc) that takes great care about license compliance, patching upstreams to include copyright notices in binaries isn't a thing. It's not the norm, and this is considered acceptable in our ecosystem.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the issue linked does not make the case that there's anything unacceptable going on here.

SillyUsername•4h ago
If it's not valid, why was this ticket not disputed and/or closed?
brookst•4h ago
Not really a fan of the “failure to sufficiently deny an accusation is an admission of guilt” line of thought.

Maybe they’re getting a legal opinion. Maybe they’re leaving it open while they talk business to business. Maybe the right person to address the issue is on vacation.

Lots of people and companies choose not to engage in public battles. I don’t think that should be read as a sign of guilt (or innocence).

pama•4h ago
You cannot argue successfully in court that the copy of the binary compiled code is not a copy of a substantial portion of the software. The fix is very trivial. This should not be an open issue.
fn-mote•4h ago
I won't address the rest, but:

> b) I see no evidence that upstream arranged to ship any notice in their binaries, so I don't see how it's reasonable to expect downstreams to do it

Downstream is not in compliance. The fact that upstream has made that compliance hard/impossible is not relevant to the fact that downstream is infringing.

grodriguez100•2h ago
a) Correct. b) Not relevant. The license says what it says regardless of what upstream does or doesn’t do. If someone wants to use the code they should comply with the license requirements.

A README is often included with binaries. That’s a good place to include any licensing information.

Tomte•2h ago
The need to extract license and copyright information for binary distribution is universally accepted among Open Source license compliance practitioners and lawyers.

There is a whole industry of tools around it (Fossid, Fossa, BlackDuck, Snyk), as well as Open Source projects ( FOSSology, scancode, oss-review-toolkit).

Re: Debian, they have copyright files in their packaged that are manually curated by Debian Developers and should include all those license texts and copyright notices.

voidUpdate•4h ago
[flagged]
mkesper•4h ago
Take a look at https://github.com/containers/ramalama/tree/main#credit-wher... for comparison. Ollama really should improve their acknowledgements and check license conformance more thoroughly.
Daviey•3h ago
And yet, neither the named individual or "The ggml authors" (as stated as the Copyright holder in llama.cpp/LICENSE) is mentioned here.

This "high-5" acknowledgement isn't license compliance.

grodriguez100•2h ago
Indeed.

It is “nice” but that does not make it compliant.

Havoc•3h ago
I'm continually puzzled by their approach - it's such self inflicted negative PR.

Building on llama is perfectly valid and they're adding value on ease of use here. Just give the llama team appropriately prominent and clearly worded credit for their contributions and call it a day.

nimbius•3h ago
i dont find it puzzling at all. the website is basically a blank canvas. contact information is nonexistent.

ignoring the issue is just another way of saying "catch me if you can." and even then open source lawsuits are rather toothless anyway, so the company clearly expects there to be zero consequence.

Maxious•1h ago
Ollama is YC21 https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/ollama and was founded by the engineers of what became Docker Desktop

You know, the tool that very famously had a massive rug pull once it gained marketshare https://www.servethehome.com/docker-abruptly-starts-charging...

KronisLV•4m ago
> First here, we understand that Docker needs to generate revenue. Creating a foundational technology and not having revenue to grow the business is hard. At the same time, the notice period is what one may consider short.

If the money was starting to run dry, with everyone using the tech (and Docker Hub in particular) but not really giving them any money for it, then something was bound to change.

It's cool that there are other alternatives to Docker Hub though and projects like Podman. I feel like with a bigger grace period, the Docker pricing changes wouldn't have been a big deal.

gmm1990•2h ago
The same MIT license is in the ollama project as is in the llama.cpp project, is this not sufficient?

llamma.cpp https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/blob/master/LICENSE

ollama.cpp https://github.com/ollama/ollama/blob/main/LICENSE

lolinder•2h ago
The clause at issue is this one:

> The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

The copyright notice is the bit at the top that identifies who owns the copyright to the code. You can use MIT code alongside any license you'd like as long as you attribute the MIT portions properly.

That said, this is a requirement that almost no one follows in non-source distributions and almost no one makes a stink about, so I suspect that the main reason why this is being brought up specifically is because a lot of people have beef with Ollama for not even giving any kind of public credit to llama.cpp for being the beating heart of their system.

Had they been less weird about giving credit in the normal, just-being-polite way I don't think anyone would have noticed that technically the license requires them to give a particular kind of attribution.

gmm1990•2h ago
Fair enough response to my post but they have the llama license too https://github.com/ollama/ollama/blob/main/llama/llama.cpp/L...
Tomte•2h ago
They need to supply license text and copyright notice with the binary distribution, as well.

Many, many projects on GitHub don’t do it and are not license compliant.

lolinder•2h ago
That is actually unspecified in the license, undecided in court, and as you note very infrequently applied. I can see an argument that the license ought to be read that way, but the fact is that it very rarely is. The only reason why Ollama is being singled out here is because people have long-standing beef with them not doing the regular polite attribution that actually is normal in the community.
Tomte•1h ago
Funny how all those large companies are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year getting those attributions right. All those open source license information pages like https://sieportal.siemens.com/oss/oss.html are just for fun, right?
grodriguez100•2h ago
It is the same license but the copyright notice is different, so no, not sufficient.
gmm1990•2h ago
Fair enough response to my post but they have the llama license too https://github.com/ollama/ollama/blob/main/llama/llama.cpp/L...
camgunz•2h ago
The GH issue's point [0] is that this isn't in the binary distributions, but it has to be "included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software" (from the MIT license), which applies to binary distributions as well.

[0]: https://github.com/ollama/ollama/issues/3185

Etheryte•1h ago
No, this completely misses the point of what the issue is about. You're missing the copyright holder information, the rest of the license is almost secondary to that fact.
jjoergensen•2h ago
I noticed this "thank you" today: "GGML

Thank you to the GGML team for the tensor library that powers Ollama’s inference – accessing GGML directly from Go has given a portable way to design custom inference graphs and tackle harder model architectures not available before in Ollama."

Source: https://ollama.com/blog/multimodal-models

alkh•1h ago
Thanks for the linked article! I was looking for a local vision model to recognize my handwritten notes, and this article provided a good TLDR about doing this in Ollama.

I think Ollama can improve TLDR and add more attribution to llama.cpp to their README. I don't understand why there's no reply from ollama maintainers for so long

paxys•2h ago
> The terms of the MIT license require that it distribute the copyright notice in both source and binary form.

No, MIT does not require that. The license says:

> The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

The exact meaning of this sentence has never been challenged and never been ruled upon. Considering ollama's README has a link to llama.cpp's project page (which includes the license), I'd say the requirement has been satisfied.

grodriguez100•2h ago
“Linking to a page that includes” is not the same as “including”. I don’t think that the requirement is satisfied.
mark_l_watson•2h ago
I have been aware that Ollama is based on/uses llama.cpp since the first day I started using Ollama. It is not like Ollama is trying to hide the use of llama,cpp, but sure, it would be a good idea in the Ollama app to have a reference in an 'About' menu item, or some such place.

It is certainly possible for a new Ollama user to not notice the acknowledgement.

Etheryte•1h ago
It's not a matter of "would be a good idea", it's a legal matter of you're in breach of someone else's copyright.
camgunz•2h ago
"The above copyright notice" refers to this line [0] from llama.cpp's LICENSE: "Copyright (c) 2023-2024 The ggml authors". ollama doesn't include it.

[0]: https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/blob/master/LICENSE#L3...

NitpickLawyer•1h ago
> ollama doesn't include it.

I see it here? https://github.com/ollama/ollama/blob/main/llama/llama.cpp/L...

Tomte•1h ago
Download a binary release of ollama and show that line again.
Koshima•2h ago
I think it’s fair to push for clear attribution in these cases, but it’s also important to remember that the MIT license is intentionally permissive. It was designed to make sharing code easy without too many hoops. If Ollama is genuinely trying to be part of the open-source community, a little transparency and acknowledgment can avoid a lot of bad blood.
Etheryte•1h ago
MIT is permissive given you follow the license. You can't just copy the code and omit the license and copyright, that's not fine, even if many people like to pretend that it is.
montebicyclelo•1h ago
It's permissive; but that doesn't imply not crediting people for their work
levifig•2h ago
FWIW, llama.cpp links to and fetches models from ollama (https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/blob/master/tools/run/...).

This issue seems to be the typical case of someone being bothered for someone else, because it implies there's no "recognition of source material" when there's quite a bit of symbiosis between the projects.

ActionHank•2h ago
Yes and no, the problem with not expecting that a prominent project follow the rules is that it makes it easier and more likely that no one will follow the rules.

Broken window theory.

diggan•56m ago
Well, llama.cpp supports fetching models from a bunch of different sources according to that file, Hugging Face, ModelScope, Ollama, any HTTP/local source. Seems fair to say they've added support for any source one most likely will find the LLM model you're looking for at.

Not sure I'd say there is "symbiosis" between ModelScope and llama.cpp just because you could download models from there via llama.cpp, just like you wouldn't say there is symbiosis between LM Studio and Hugging Face, or even more fun example: YouTube <> youtube-dl/yt-dlp.

moralestapia•10m ago
>FWIW

It's not worth much. That is a compeltely different thing.

What you mention equates to downloading a file from the web.

Ollama using code from llama.cpp without complying with the license terms is illegal.

alfiedotwtf•1h ago
A year of complaining but nobody has thought to just implement it themselves and push a PR?
tucnak•4m ago
A PR that nobody would accept? There were like 20 pull requests implementing grammar sampling parameter handling (largely distasteful) at the time, over 16 months, absolutely zero acknowledgement from ollama maintainers.

Sending patches to ollama is less worthwhile than watching paint dry.

Der_Einzige•55m ago
Reason #1395292 that you should be using vLLM, but given the downvotes I get for pointing this out it appears that HN really hates lots of tok/s (yes, even with batch size of 1 on your low tier GPU this is true)

Why does anyone in the GenAI care about copyright, licenses, etc? (besides for being nice and getting the community to like you, which should matter for Ollama)

This whole field is built off piracy at a scale never before seen. Aaron Swartz blushes when he thinks about what Llama and other projects pulled off without anyone getting arrested. Why should I care when one piracy project messes with another?

The whole field is basically a celebration of copyright abolitionism and the creation of "dual power" ala 1917 Russia where copyright doesn't matter. Have some consistency and stop caring about this stuff.

antirez•31m ago
Both are MIT licensed. Georgi should be more actively credited in the Ollama web site / code? Yes.

There is a serious copyright / licensing issue? Nope.

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