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What does the end of mathematics look like?

https://www.awanderingmind.blog/posts/2025-05-18-what-does-the-end-of-mathematics-look-like.html
35•awanderingmind•4h ago

Comments

A_D_E_P_T•3h ago
We'll know that the time draws nearer when an AI confirms or refutes Mochizuki's proof of the abc conjecture. As of right now, I don't think they're capable of doing that. And, as they can't even check a very (very!) complex proof, they won't be able to conjure any inhumanly complex proofs de novo.

Also:

> To expand: what if the practice of mathematics becomes completely determined by the diktats of a vast capitalist machinery of proprietary machine learning models churning out proof after proof, and theory after theory, conjured from the aether of all possible true statements?

I don't think that this is possible even in theory, as computational resources are limited and "the aether of all possible true statements" is incomprehensively vast. (There's a massive orders-of-magnitude difference in size between true-seeming-yet-false statements and the number of elementary particles in the visible universe. More statements than particles.) You can't brute force it.

bryanrasmussen•3h ago
also why would capitalists expand resources on churning out proof after proof when mathematical proofs are not patentable?
auggierose•2h ago
That will change quickly if capitalists see that as an obstacle. Right now, they don't really care about that, as for example software (much of which is just math) is already patentable in the US.
awanderingmind•1h ago
A reasonable question - another way of looking at it is that theorems are just a side effect of mathematical research. Much of the world economy depends on things like cryptography, which involves a bunch of theorems. The question is then 'what as yet undiscovered mathematical realms might models think up that could make people money'? It is hard to imagine what doesn't exist yet, but much harder to imagine that all potentially profitable mathematics has already been discovered. This could 'just' look like algorithmic improvements.
andyjohnson0•2h ago
> We'll know that the time draws nearer when an AI confirms or refutes Mochizuki's proof of the abc conjecture. As of right now, I don't think they're capable of doing that. And, as they can't even check a very (very!) complex proof, they won't be able to conjure any inhumanly complex proofs de novo.

I agree, but... Spend time formalising a large part of existing mathematics and proofs, train a bunch of sufficiently powerful and generative models with that, and with cooperative problem solving and proof strategies, and give them access to proof assistants and adequate compute resources, and something interesting could happen.

I suspect the barrier is finding a business model that would pay for this. Turning mathematics into an industrial, extruded-on-demand product might work, but I dont know who (except maybe the NSA) would stump-up the money.

n4r9•1h ago
Why would an AI confirmation or rejection be more convincing than the proof itself?
esperent•1h ago
Rejection: an incredibly complex proof can fall for (comparatively) simple reasons. If the AI scans the entire proof and says yep, there's the flaw, page 126 theorem X contradicts <well established known theorem> then a human can verify this without having to understand the whole proof.

This could lead to the proof being rejected entirely, or fixed and strengthened.

Confirmation: if the AI understands it well enough that we're even considering asking it to confirm the proof, then you can do all kinds of things. You can ask it to simplify the entire proof to make it easier for humans to verify. You can ask it questions about parts of the proof you don't understand. You can ask it if there's any interesting corollaries or applications in other fields. Maybe you can even ask it to rewrite the whole thing in LEAN (although, like the author, I know nothing about LEAN and have no idea if this would be useful).

zarzavat•1h ago
Presumably an AI would formalise the proof in a system such as Lean, then you only need to trust the kernel of that proof system.

Rejecting a proof would be more complicated, because while for confirming a proof you only need to check that the main statement in the formalisation matches that of the conjecture, showing that a proof has been rejected requires knowledge of the proof itself (in general).

lblume•1h ago
> requires knowledge of the proof itself (in general)

Why? If a proof is wrong it has to be locally invalid, i.e. draw some inference which is invalid according to rules of logic. Of course the antecedent could have been defined pages earlier, but in and of itself the error must be local, right?

awanderingmind•1h ago
I am not suggesting models will be capable of generating 'all' proofs - that is clearly impossible. Merely that they will get better at doing so, and there is no clear reason at the moment to believe they will never reach a human level of competence. If you have one model functioning at such a level, it is presumably trivial to have a million of them, none of which will need to be paid, housed, or sleep etc.
hliyan•2h ago
Considering that mathematics is, at its core, a language for defining relationships between quantities, and then relationships between those relationships, so on and so forth, I think it's fair to assume that the possible number of such relationships are infinite. Some of these relationships will obviously be useful in the real world, but they don't always have to be. I too, suspect that we can keep on building theorems on top of theorems with increasing complexity, until a point is reached that it becomes just too tedious (but not impossible) for a human being to work through the proof.
camjw•1h ago
> a language for defining relationships between quantities

Could you expand on this? I don't see maths as a language for quantities specifically (i.e. what does symmetry have to do with quantities).

> just too tedious (but not impossible) for a human being to work through the proof.

Already happened with the four colour theorem arguably.

initramfs2•1h ago
just the zfc axioms alone are already infinite. It's an axiom schema ranging over an infinite number of actual statements. That's just statements, without even considering symbols as you're saying.
Someone•1h ago
> I think it's fair to assume that the possible number of such relationships are infinite

That’s easily proven to be true. “Two plus two equals four” is a theorem, so is “three plus three equals six”, etc.

enugu•24m ago
> we can keep on building theorems on top of theorems with increasing complexity

This is a somewhat bleak picture of math. We also have the other phenomena of increasing simplicity. Both statements and proofs becoming more straightforward and simple after one has access to deeper mathematical constructions.

For example : Bezout's theorem would like to state that two curves of degree m, degree n would intersect in mn points. Except that you have two parallel lines intersecting at 0 instead of 1.1 =1 point, two disjoint circles intersect at 0 instead of 2.2=4 points, a line tangent to a circle intersecting at 1 point instead of 1.2=2 points. These exceptions merge into a simple picture once one goes to projective space, complex numbers and schemes. Complex numbers lead to lots of other instances of simplicity.

Similarly, proofs can become simple where before one had complicated ad-hoc reasoning.

Feynman once made the same point of laws of physics where in contrast to someone figuring out rules of chess by looking at games where they first figure out basic rules(how pieces move) and then moves to complex exceptions(en passant, pawn promotion), what often happens in physics is that different sets of rules for apparently distinct phenomena become aspects of a unity (ex: heat, light, sound were seen as distinct things but now are all seen as movements of particles; unification of electricity and magnetism).

Of course, this unification pursuit is never complete. Mathematics books/papers constantly seem to pull a rabbit out of a hat. This leads to 'motivation' questions for why such a construction/expression/definition was made. For a few of those questions, the answer only becomes clear after more research.

N2yhWNXQN3k9•2h ago
This article is written in an unnecessarily extravagant style, IMO.

Also, I appreciate anonymity, but, to my point

> I live by myself in a remote mountain cave beyond the ken of civilised persons, and can only be contacted during a full moon, using certain arcane rites that are too horrible to speak of.

Okay.

xdfgh1112•2h ago
Agreed if I had saw that first I wouldn't have clicked
BSDobelix•2h ago
>>I live by myself in a remote mountain cave

= I live in California, and the nearest Starbucks is more than 20 miles away.

>>can only be contacted during a full moon

= As a night person, I am awake when the streetlight outside my house turns on.

>>certain arcane rites that are too horrible to speak of

= In order to contact me, you must install Microsoft Teams.

Overall, it's not that bad, except for the MS team thing. ;)

bubblyworld•2h ago
The man is south african, we are geologically blessed and have a lot of pleasant remote mountain caves =)
BSDobelix•1h ago
Okay, I will revert everything. The cave, the moon, and the rituals are all real. It's impressive how much reality is based on location :-)
bubblyworld•37m ago
That's the spirit!
awanderingmind•1h ago
True!

I don't literally live in a cave, but fortunately not everyone is so allergic to whimsical language :D.

nottorp•2h ago
As always, HN has no sense of humour...
milesrout•2h ago
Writing like a wanker isn't funny.
vixen99•1h ago
Why not just say to yourself, - "I don't think that's funny" - instead of generalizing on behalf of others with a word that is in essence, meaningless or rather, it means what you personally want it to mean for any particular occasion?
guappa•1h ago
The account is 9 years old and has 166 karma. I presume it's an alt account used for less acceptable opinions.
awanderingmind•1h ago
Some people do!
deadbabe•1h ago
Humor is banned here.
ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7•54m ago
I don't think the commenter was saying anything about the quality of humor in that statement. Rather, they were attempting to relay that the style of writing is overly verbose, even on the contact page.
gilleain•1h ago
Perhaps the writer is a fan of Grothendieck who did almost exactly this - lived in a remote village in the Pyrenees

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Grothendieck#Retirem...

"Local villagers helped sustain him with a more varied diet after he tried to live on a staple of dandelion soup." - like most people would.

hackable_sand•2h ago
When does math become recreational for people?
coolcase•2h ago
At a young age?
srean•1h ago
When you do it with love
awanderingmind•1h ago
In my case, when you aren't paid to do it, and don't have (much) time to study it formally anymore.
plopilop•1h ago
How is that any different than people programming for fun?
moffkalast•1h ago
In poker?
dsign•45m ago
I love the language of this article :-)... it may be florid, but that's quintessentially human.

About the substance, I agree that there are fair grounds for concern, and it's not just about mathematics.

The best case scenario is rejection and prohibition of uses of AI that fundamentally threaten human autonomy. It is theoretically possible to do so, but since capital and power are pro-AI[^1], getting there requires a social revolution that upends the current world order. Even if one were to happen, the results wouldn't last for too long. Unless said revolution were so utterly radical that would set us in a return trajectory to the middle ages (I have something of the sort published somewhere, check my profile!).

I'm an optimist when it comes to the enabling power of AI for a select few. But I'm a pessimist otherwise: if the richest nation on Earth can't educate its citizens, what hope is there that humans will be able to supervise and control AI for long? Given our current trajectory, if nothing changes, we are set for civilization catastrophe.

[^1]: Replacing expensive human labor is the most powerful modern economic incentive I know of. Money wants, money gets.

awanderingmind•26m ago
Thanks for the positive feedback on my writing style! Based on feedback in this thread it seems to be a divisive topic, haha.
npodbielski•12m ago
I would say that I am envy that someone can write like that. I can't write in such manner in my native language, let alone in the second one: English. It is nice to read or hear someone speaking like that, considering we are surrounded by low quality, easy to consume content nowadays.

And I am envy of such skill because I like to think about myself as not entirely being stupid, still I would never be able to write/speak this way because I just do not have an aptitude towards that.

lmm•42m ago
The camera didn't kill painting. Neither the bicycle nor the motor-car killed running. There are already subfields of mathematics where it's believed that all the interesting discoveries have been found and no-one is looking except for the occasional amateur - and other subfields where to even have a hope of doing cutting edge research you would need to both do multiple years of postgraduate study and then get accepted onto one of a small number of close-knit teams that are pushing that cutting edge on an industrial scale.

So I don't see any reason to worry about the impact of AI. Unlike most fields with AI worries, mathematical research isn't even a significant employment area, and people with jobs doing it could almost certainly be doing something else for more money.

jcelerier•29m ago
> The camera didn't kill painting

But it did. Painter used to be a trade where you could sell your painting skills as, well, a skill applicable for other than purely aesthetic reasons, simply because there were no other ways to document the world around you. It just isn't anymore because of cameras. Professional oil portrait painter isn't a career in 2025.

awanderingmind•25m ago
Well, it is still a career, but it's very niche, and more attuned to 'art' than 'documenting the world'.
prennert•22m ago
The Royal Society of Portrait Painters might disagree: https://therp.co.uk/artists/
gizajob•29m ago
-0
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