Whether it’s a direct confrontation of superpowers is absolutely still in the air. This can be constrained to proxies. (And from there, avoiding a proxy contest going nuclear. Non-proxy conflicts like Israel-Iran and India-Pakistan are out of our control on the nuclear front.)
> West is going to wish it had done more to help Ukraine, there was a window of opportunity that may have prevented what we're going to be in for
Yes. Unfortunately it seems that the temptation of appeasement isn’t a lesson learned long.
"We're unwillingly and blindly stepping into a war, we should have done more war!"
Maybe we should have done less war and less talking about war, don't you think? Talked more with Russia (let alone not provoke it into a confrontation for an entire decade- ask Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland), built up clear and safe and agreed boundaries, etc.
Who is “we”?
> Talked more with Russia (let alone not provoke it into a confrontation for an entire decade- ask Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland), built up clear and safe and agreed boundaries, etc.
You realise that there were talks with Russia, including on “clear and safe and agreed boundaries”, right? Russia was a guarantor in the Minsk and Budapest memoranda. As for your point in the middle, it really is strange that smaller countries want to escape Russia’s sphere of influence, considering what they do to their neighbours in Moldova and Georgia, to name but two examples. Never mind Chechnya and now, of course, Ukraine. Russia’s behaviour is the main driving force towards NATO and the EU in Eastern Europe.
You are repeating bullshit propaganda.
THE whole argument of this one and similar "leaks" is "interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs". Ukrainians see it a little differently: "helping Ukraine escape Russia". But Russia sees it as "helping Ukraine escape Russia, thus interfering in Russia's domestic affairs". When Russians say that someone is "interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs" they mean that Ukraine is Russian and should not be touched by anyone other than Russia.
Also the article:
> The US says that it is working with all sides in the crisis to reach a peaceful solution, noting that "ultimately it is up to the Ukrainian people to decide their future". However this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals
> Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition [...] US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment.
> the US expresses frustration at the EU's efforts. Washington and Brussels have not been completely in step during the Ukraine crisis. The EU is divided and to some extent hesitant about picking a fight with Moscow.
The year is 2014
How to spot Russian propaganda: They treat Ukrainians as Russians that didn't want to go to big bad west, but USA meddled and made them stray from one true Russian way, Ukrainians were only a tool with no agency whatsoever used against Russian peaceful ways.
The article even suggests that the EU simply doesn't have enough cash at hand to attract the Ukrainians, and would rather play it more on the long term- but that the US was too impatient for that. Yet more evidence of active meddling of US in Ukraine' political choices, with the purpose of attracting a country in their sphere of influence, surely not motivated by the will of the people.
Now, this is not to say that in abstract Ukrainians wouldn't have preferred the West to Russia. But they have been at least in part the victim of a power play between the USA and Russia.
It’s not so hard to notice, that all the problems started when the other side of Budapest memorandum decided to not respect it anymore. Since 2004 Ukraine became less and less sovereign, resulting in a puppet government installed in 2014 and starting the hot phase. It’s also not hard to notice, that at every step Ukraine could chose negotiations, but was pushed towards more confrontation by Western bakers.
European countries have agency and their own security interests. We are perfectly able to understand that the US are going to take advantage of the situation as much as they can get away with. It’s still better than a new iron curtain. It is really not difficult to understand why our interests are more aligned with the US than with Russia.
West good, Russia evil? Cmon its way more nuanced than that. And the Ukrainian speaking Ukrainian elites are no better than the Russian elites. Or the Western elites for that matter.
Ukraine is a pawn in the Geopolitical power game. The people have been sacrificed on both sides.
Its the morally bankrupt and corrupt Elites who should be in the firing line.
I was at a birthday party in Kyiv about a month ago, the only non-Ukrainian guest. Most of the day most the guests were speaking Russian, even when cursing the Russian invaders and toasting to their deaths. These were “elites” economically speaking.
The idea that there are Russian speaking Ukrainians being oppressed like Jews in Nazi Germany is idiotic and not at all based in reality.
Source: I speak Russian but not Ukrainian, my wife is a Ukrainian whose native language is Russian. Every time we wake up in the night to Russian bombardment we curse the Russian invaders—in Russian!
And ur comment addressed nothing about how the elites in the west are using ukraine as a pawn to take down russia like Afghanistan with the soviets.
Both sides have their propaganda and bullshit.
Ukraine has a long history of resisting Russian subjugation, long before supposed CIA plots and conversations with Victoria Nuland. I wish there were some sinister plot to vanquish Russia via a proxy war in Ukraine; maybe then the Western powers would finally jock up and put an end to Russian imperialism once and for all. Sadly I’m afraid this narrative of Ukraine as pawn to destroy Russia is only a Russian propagandist’s fever dream.
I agree though, that the west should have done far more to help Ukraine.
Whether that works time will tell.
What is certain however, is the number of the dead and the destruction of Ukraine.
You do bad economically for too many people and you end up with a right wing government. You do well ... well, you get it.
andrewfromx•8mo ago