> Italians care enough to complain about their demographic collapse, but not enough to make policy changes.
How would giving paperwork to non-Italians help the demographics of Italians?
toomuchtodo•8mo ago
Young people don’t have children where there are no services and workers providing those services. Certainly, jobs with living wages are also an important component.
From my last link above:
> More than a third of Italy’s teenagers dream of emigrating as soon as they are old enough to do so, with the most favoured destination being the US (32 per cent), followed by Spain (12 per cent) and the UK (11 per cent), according to Istat.
> In March last year, the institute reported that in 2023, the number of births in Italy fell to 379,000 – a record low.
(there were 370k births in 2024, and we should except another 9k-10k decline in 2025 arriving at ~360k births this year)
like_any_other•8mo ago
> Young people don’t have children where there are no services and workers providing those services.
Let's test that theory: which countries have reversed their native population decline with immigration?
toomuchtodo•8mo ago
No country will ever convince native populations to have more children solely because of immigration [1] (Utah and Israel do it with religious fundamentalism, which has...fallen out of favor, broadly speaking); immigration improves the economy, which creates economic potential for native born to potentially consider having children. You're never going to convince most rational people to have kids in a poor economic macro (Russia, South Korea, Italy, Greece to varying degress), so you must stoke the economy to ensure it is sufficiently healthy to encourage those still considering having kids to have them. Immigration most recently was creating a robust US economy, for example [2]. Of course, a robust economy is no guarantee you're going to convince native born citizens to take on the burden of childrearing. Raising children is incredibly high cost to parents and the rewards are mixed at best.
Your comment here [3] leads me to believe that rational arguments are going to fall on deaf ears though, from the anti immigrant pro native born vibes. Correct me if I'm mistaken on that though if I'm misreading the comment.
> In all countries, 39% of people said financial limitations prevented them from having a child. The highest response was in Korea (58%), the lowest in Sweden (19%).
> In total, only 12% of people cited infertility - or difficulty conceiving - as a reason for not having the number of children they wanted to. But that figure was higher in countries including Thailand (19%), the US (16%), South Africa (15%), Nigeria (14%) and India (13%).
> The UNFPA partnered with YouGov and surveyed more than 14,000 men and women across 14 countries. Of the 10,000 respondents who said they wanted children, nearly 40% said financial limitations were keeping them from having their ideal family size.
> The survey found that millions of people are unable to have as many children as they wish because of financial constraints, gender inequality and uncertainty about the future.
> “This crisis is not rooted in individual reproductive decisions that fail to align with the needs of a state or economy,” the report said. Instead, it’s due to systems that “failed to create the economic security and personal empowerment that people say are preconditions for realizing their family formation goals.”
toomuchtodo•8mo ago
Italy's demographic crisis worsens as births hit record low - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italys-demographic-cris... - March 31st, 2025
Labour Shortages Persist in Italy as Nearly Half of Job Openings Remain Unfilled - https://cde.news/labour-shortages-persist-in-italy-as-nearly... March 15th, 2025
Italy’s birth rate crisis is ‘irreversible’, say experts - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/01/13/zero-babie... | https://archive.today/Sa0m2 - January 13th, 2025
like_any_other•8mo ago
How would giving paperwork to non-Italians help the demographics of Italians?
toomuchtodo•8mo ago
From my last link above:
> More than a third of Italy’s teenagers dream of emigrating as soon as they are old enough to do so, with the most favoured destination being the US (32 per cent), followed by Spain (12 per cent) and the UK (11 per cent), according to Istat.
> In March last year, the institute reported that in 2023, the number of births in Italy fell to 379,000 – a record low.
(there were 370k births in 2024, and we should except another 9k-10k decline in 2025 arriving at ~360k births this year)
like_any_other•8mo ago
Let's test that theory: which countries have reversed their native population decline with immigration?
toomuchtodo•8mo ago
Your comment here [3] leads me to believe that rational arguments are going to fall on deaf ears though, from the anti immigrant pro native born vibes. Correct me if I'm mistaken on that though if I'm misreading the comment.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44229099
[2] https://www.axios.com/2024/03/13/immigration-economy-jobs-gr...
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44230345
like_any_other•8mo ago
> You're never going to convince most rational people to have kids in a poor economic macro (Russia, South Korea, Italy, Greece to varying degress)
Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia? Glancing at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer..., I'm not seeing this economy <--> fertility correlation you claim exists.
toomuchtodo•8mo ago
World fertility rates in 'unprecedented decline', UN says - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clynq459wxgo - June 9th, 2025
> In all countries, 39% of people said financial limitations prevented them from having a child. The highest response was in Korea (58%), the lowest in Sweden (19%).
> In total, only 12% of people cited infertility - or difficulty conceiving - as a reason for not having the number of children they wanted to. But that figure was higher in countries including Thailand (19%), the US (16%), South Africa (15%), Nigeria (14%) and India (13%).
toomuchtodo•8mo ago
> The UNFPA partnered with YouGov and surveyed more than 14,000 men and women across 14 countries. Of the 10,000 respondents who said they wanted children, nearly 40% said financial limitations were keeping them from having their ideal family size.
> The survey found that millions of people are unable to have as many children as they wish because of financial constraints, gender inequality and uncertainty about the future.
> “This crisis is not rooted in individual reproductive decisions that fail to align with the needs of a state or economy,” the report said. Instead, it’s due to systems that “failed to create the economic security and personal empowerment that people say are preconditions for realizing their family formation goals.”