I don’t really think that individuals need to feel especially bad for getting work where there’s work.
Some jobs just inherently involve asshole clients. If your job is to stitch the leather interiors for Rolls Royce, 100% of your customers are assholes. I don’t think that means you should stop doing that job and flip burgers instead.
SanjayMehta•4h ago
ath3nd•4h ago
And sure as hell we would not mind our business, standing aside when evil is being done makes you participate in evil. Saudi Arabia needs to be named and shamed and boycotted, the same way Russia and Israel currently are.
v5v3•4h ago
graemep•3h ago
You do not realise how privileged people in the west are - as someone who has lived inn a country that was bad at the time (nothing like Saudi Arabia but things such as journalists being disappeared and a nasty civil war) westerners who say "oh, its just the same" make me really just look delusional and completely unaware of their privilege.
msgodel•3h ago
graemep•3h ago
1. That does not make it ethical. There was a time when the majority of people in the US thought it right to treat black people as inferior. Did that make it right?
2. This stuff is at its worst in counties where the population has no chance to express their preference.
3. How do you know what people's preferences are in "foreign states"? Did you go there and ask a representative sample of people after convincing them they could trust you enough to tell you their real views?
Its amazing how people's expressed preferences match their governments if they will be chucked in jail or murdered if they disagree, and their access to information is limited to what the government things they should know.
msgodel•3h ago
ramon156•3h ago
mpalmer•1h ago
jbm•3h ago
So yeah, no. Statements about human rights have no credibility.
sthkr•3h ago
Lol no one gets their head cut off for gay sex or wrong religion. Capital punishment is only for murder, terrorism, rape and drug smugglers. The Saudi Government is quite liberal there. It's your own Saudi families that will ostracize you based on their own decisions.
You keep talking about dissidents. I still remember Obama and his Arab spring and how thousands died because of him. The west like to implant people to create internal conflicts inside countries. It's not going to work in the Gulf countries as all the citizens know how the Americans thrive on instigating conflict. That journalist just wanted to create anarchy. I still remember the terrorist attacks at my American school and other cities in Saudi Arabia during 2004 - 2005. I trust the police and government to eradicate all the extremist and outside threats to the country and keep everyone safe. They've basically cleaned out all the extremism in these past 20 years from the country. The Americans also enjoyed keeping the Saudis and Iranians fighting until the Chinese stepped in and created peace between these two countries.
Americans need to worry about their own backyard with their crap healthcare, poverty, homelessness, illegals, gun violence etc. Saudi Arabia isn't perfect, but Saudi citizens have to pay no income taxes, get free universal healthcare, free education, free university education, all government paid scholarships for universities abroad (tuition, travel & living), first priority in all jobs, social security support for low income citizens, interest free mortgages, etc. Plus Saudi Arabia long with the other Gulf countries like UAE & Qatar are some of the safest countries. All illegals arrested and deported every month, low crime rates, no African/Asian Refugee illegal drunk junkies roaming the streets (like Europe/America), no homeless tents, no gun violence etc.
The Gulf countries along with Japan, South Korea, Singapore and China know how to keep their countries safe, clean and well. Look at Europe & Scandinavia now with all the illegals running around.
leosanchez•2h ago
Do legal immigrants get to keep their passports?
sthkr•2h ago
dgfl•1h ago
mpalmer•11m ago
If someone were paying you to defend the Saudi state in online forums, you would probably go to the trouble of giving your posts at least a tiny bit of nuance.
DanielVZ•3h ago
dangus•1h ago
v5v3•50m ago
If the media won't tell you, how will you find out?
SanjayMehta•46m ago
pelagicAustral•3h ago
spwa4•3h ago
Under that thinking, of course, everyone (except, of course, the speaker and friends) is evil and can be accused and held responsible, for their "moral failings".
Oh and you ESPECIALLY don't get to defend anyone with practical arguments, for example, that it is a lot harder for a government that does not have tons and tons of (to them) free natural resources money, like Saudi Arabia (they don't even extract it themselves) to avoid moral problems, and problems in general than it is for, say America. That a country that has to do things itself, just to make a random example, defend it's shores against drugs (and shoot at people who try to ...) has to make a lot of moral compromises (like, perhaps, shooting at criminals trying to flee in a boat) that Saudi Arabia doesn't have to make.
Many countries, like Saudi Arabia, always get a free pass, because "you can't expect them to adhere to ..." when in fact it would be SO much easier for them to have a perfect human rights record, no poverty, extremely liberal societies, ... than it is for the US (because incomes in Saudi Arabia largely does not derive from having Saudi Arabians work, so there's no need to force them to. America shoots at people so Saudi Arabia can export it's oil, ...)
The fact is most non-Western governments (like Saudi Arabia, but they're middle of the boat at best in evilness) don't have the interests of people in mind at all. Regardless if "people" means Saudi Arabian people, people who live in Saudi Arabia including foreignors, or women, or children for that matter. AT BEST, they are like Western companies, at worst ... you can imagine. That a government with the financial means of Saudi Arabia fails here should be 10x worse than similar failings on, for example the US's part (but same for, say, Denmark). But the root cause is simple: the Saudi government is not there to benefit the people there, it benefits itself only.
In other words: these dictatorships are MUCH worse and have MUCH more serious moral failings than the US.
sthkr•2h ago
Saudi Arabia has 20 million Saudi citizens and they're the only priority and future of the country that has surpassed a GDP of $1 trillion.
ath3nd•2h ago
Whatabouting the US doesn't mean Saudi Arabia's human rights violations suddenly vanish in thin air.
sthkr•1h ago
Saudi citizens are doing just fine and are being greatly supported and have a bright future with the Vision 2030 work happening so far. You worry about your shitty healthcare, gun violence, homelessness, high income taxes, crappy infrastructure, illegal drunks & junkies roaming the streets and other stuff. No one gives a crap about your lame accusations of human rights. You've historically been the biggest mass murders and genocides from killing off the natives in North America and Aborigines in Australia and the recent wars in the middle east. No one gives a crap about some fat old attention whore journalist here anymore. 70% of the Saudi citizen population is under 35 years old and we support the government to keeps the country and us safe from all outside terrorists and other threats.
ath3nd•1h ago
Absolutely true. And also responsible for the crusades, for the colonization of Africa, Australia and America, and the untold suffering of millions of non Europeans. Europeans also started both the world wars. Nobody is denying that. We know more about human rights violations than anyone else. Thats why we are calling out Saudi Arabia's, the same way I call Israel's genocide upon the Palestinian people.
> No one gives a crap about some fat old attention whore journalist here anymore.
Any normal human with a bit of empathy would decry a dictator killing a journalist and dismembering him like a coward. Also, wherever there a re human rights violations like in Israel, USA and Saudi Arabia, it's our moral duty to investigate further and dethrone the evildoers.
> Lol political dissidents are turd implants from the Western countries designed to instigate anarchy in the country
Ah, the old "everyone who disagrees with the government" is a foreign agent, let's detain them and maybe chop them to pieces. Putin did the same minus the chopping part. Trump is doing the same and trying to bring back Guantanamo. MBS just added the slice and dice for an extra flair.
> Saudi citizen population is under 35 years old and we support the government to keeps the country and us safe from all outside terrorists and other threats.
And whoever doesn't support the government, gets chopped to pieces?
ath3nd•2h ago
matthewdgreen•2h ago
victorbjorklund•2h ago
SanjayMehta•43m ago
thomassmith65•3h ago
The quickest path to a Saudi Arabia that doesn't abuse human rights is probably the path they're already on.
TheOtherHobbes•3h ago
There is "Not my problem" here, because one or way another it will be your problem within ten years, maybe five.
And for some people here and reading this, within a few months.
Your choices about what to work now on affect your future, in a very direct, literal, potentially fatal way.
That's the point.
thomassmith65•3h ago
Any boycott that would get Saudi Arabia more humane government would be a good boycott. It just seems more likely that sanctions would wreck their economy and lead to a religious fanatic taking over.
sam_lowry_•2h ago
thomassmith65•2h ago
In Saudi Arabia, if you're not someone he wants to torture or kill, you can enjoy increased religious freedoms, gender equality, and international ties.
It's a bit like Iran before the revolution: the Shah was liberalizing and modernizing his nation, while at the same using SAVAK to torture his opposition.
ath3nd•1h ago
Increased compared to taliban rule? Wow, thanks so much to the benevolent dictator for allowing a woman to go out without a male companion without being stoned. And thank the benevolent dictator for not having an interest in me specially. All praise the guy who could dismember many people but chooses to do that only to a couple, and who could imprison many, but does it mostly to his family and whoever he pleases.
victorbjorklund•2h ago
dangus•1h ago
A building is a building. If you’re pouring concrete you’re impacting the climate.
This is like saying you’d rather build automobiles in the US instead of China. Either way you’re building an automobile.
The ideology of the government has very little to do with whether the thing you’re doing is impacting climate change.
Architects who want to reduce carbon emissions need to switch professions entirely.
user____name•1h ago
Leaders like Assad and Kim Jung Un promised reforms but ended up ruling much like their fathers before them. People are quick to dismiss such early promises as Machiavellian posing but I believe the issues are more systemic. They end up as authoritarians because thats the only way for them and their kin to remain safe in the face of opposition. The ruling elites are comfortable in their local optimum and moving out of it will be politically chaotic. The status quo for them is the least worst choice.
I would not be too quick in expecting change from these regimes is I guess what I'm trying to say. They're not always as firmly established as they might seem.
SanjayMehta•47m ago
ath3nd•41m ago
We are calling this out. What is wrong with that?
0rzech•4h ago
Well, this is what the article proposes to architects indeed.