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See how your AI chatbot works on Slack or Mircosoft teams

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2•nateb2022•1h ago•0 comments
Open in hackernews

Tell HN: You owe it to yourself to understand nutrition

12•prmph•7h ago
Just did some really eye-opening research about the effects of macro-nutrients on the body and fat storage [1].

Guys, there are a lot on misconceptions most of us have about nutrition, even those of us who think we are better informed. Here are some points I gleaned from my conversation:

- Dietary fat is most easily stored as fat in the body. Frequently you hear the current understanding is that dietary fat is not the devil, but carbs are. But now I know it it more complex: carbs are converted into glycogen, but they are NOT easily converted into fat (through a rare process called de novo lipogenesis, only if glycogen stores are full, AND there is still excess calories to store). The reason it appears carbs make you fat is that carbs have what is termed a fat- and protein- sparing effect: by freeing up dietary fat to be stored as body fat, because the fat now no longer needed for energy in place of the carbs.

- There is also a thermic effect of various macro-nutrients, which is the energy required to digest them. Again, it takes very little energy to digest fat, a moderate amount for carbs, and a high amount for protein. This should be taken into account when evaluating how each affects the body in a caloric surplus situation.

- Even healthy oils/fats, like olive oil and Omega-3 fats, are still basically fat easily stored as such in the body as described above, if there is a caloric excess. But they are used in cell membranes, brain tissue, and anti-inflammatory signaling before being stored, so they are less likely to go directly to "storage" as it were.

- It gets more complex: Carbs spike insulin, which promotes fat storage and inhibits fat burning. BUT, the fat must be there to store in the first place, and this only happens in a calorie surplus. AND, even without carbs spiking insulin, having a lot fat tissue reduces insulin sensitivity, a driver of diabetes. Also, some carbs, like sugar/fructose, have bad effects other than simply contributing to fat storage: insulin resistance due to frequent spikes, liver fat accumulation, systemic inflammation, gut microbiome disruption, dental decay, etc.

So, major devil is a caloric surplus or excess. If eating some high quality fat helps you to maintain a caloric balance, then fine. But this devil is horrible in fat form, less bad in carb form, and almost redeemable in protein form.

But generally, everybody is different. You need to read up more on these to understand your body + diet as an entire system, and you will be in a better position to care for your nutritive health. I notice HN'ers are quick to express all kinds of strong opinions on nutrition, drowning out those with actual expertise.

[1] Starting with ChatGPT, and cross-checking with actual research, since I know there might be some inaccuracies in it output.

Comments

purple_turtle•7h ago
If you verified it and llm only prompted you to start - then do not mention it at start.

If you know so little on the topic that chatgpt was illuminating - then I have doubts whether you are qualified to review it.

Nutrition research has piles and piles of low quality studies allowing you to support any claims you may wish to make.

I tried some time ago to get some worthwhile guidance and failed. I have doubts whether it improved much since then.

cyanydeez•7h ago
Nutrition research is basically the same as food varieties. There's junk and raw, and most of them have a complicated interaction that can only be understood over a long period which is rarely observed, to the point that no recommendations will ever account for 100% of a real diet, environment, activity and genetics.
shafyy•7h ago
Nutrition is very complex, and also nutrition scientists don't understand everything, and how it relates to health and well-being. Therefore, I try to keep to a few basic rules of thumbs:

- Eat as much unprocessed food as possible

- Eat mostly vegetables, ideally a wide variety (i.e. don't only eat cauliflower)

- Eat a lot of fiber

- Choose unsaturated fats like olive oil over saturated ones like butter

- Limit your caloric intake

https://nutritionfacts.org is a very good source. Dr. Michael Greger and his team review a huge number of studies, and explain them with all the caveats.

Pooge•7h ago
I do all of those except the last one. I don't understand the obsession to calculate calories if you're eating healthily.

I lost some considerable weight that I did not intend to lose by just eating less red and more green. Don't think I can ever get it back.

purple_turtle•7h ago
For typical person reading it, it is a good advise to eat less calories.

More and more people are obese or at least fat. There are some starving people, but with exception of some anorexics they are definitely not reading hn.

Pooge•7h ago
> For typical person reading it, it is a good advise to eat less calories.

Why should they care about calories if they are eating healthily? It is a far better advice to eat more vegetables and less meat/processed than counting calories.

purple_turtle•7h ago
Typical person reading this is overly fat or outright obese or on way to do this.

There are people starving but they are not reading hn or are anorexics.

Pooge•7h ago
Typical person reading this is ordering over-salted and sweet instant food from the comfort of their couch and waiting for the delivery to arrive.

People like convenience and laziness and it doesn't help you when trying to eat correctly.

geoka9•2h ago
Possibly because quitting comfort food cold-turkey rarely works for most people. Being aware of calories allows you to maintain the deficit while having cheat days (or meals). The goal is to find a lifestyle that works because relying purely on your willpower is not sustainable long term.
shafyy•7h ago
Obviously, if you have a good weight and low body fat, you don't need to limit your caloric intake. In this PDF nutritionfacts.org cites several studies that seem to show that caloric restriction might have health benefits outside of pure energy intake: https://app.box.com/file/1421942387675

But yes, I also don't count calories or whatever =)

Pooge•7h ago
I just think, and so does Dr Giles Yeo—author of Why Calories Don't Count—if you've heard of him, that advising people to eat more healthily would be more productive than telling them to start counting calories. Even if we're talking about losing weight.

Quoting from his book: "If you focus on health, your weight will take care of itself".

Fire-Dragon-DoL•4h ago
Some of us have unlimited hunger, so tracking calories help me realize that if I'm still hungry, it's time to make a big salad or start eating celery sticks (and I'm not joking, that's what I do)
prmph•3h ago
Here's a salad recipe that is very tasty to me that I never tire of eating. I'm happy to pass it on, since it makes not feel like I'm missing out on anything.

Ingredients:

- Fresh Kale (shredded) or Aragula/Rocket leaves

- Fresh onions (or better still the greens of leeks, since onions were making my reflux worse), sliced

- Cherry or Roma tomatoes (sliced if necessary)

- Canned chunky tuna in vegetable oil (preferably olive oil) with a bit of salt

- Red apples (sliced). Could sub Clementines or a bit of dried mangoes (shredded) instead.

- Pecan or Cashew nuts (toasted)

Method:

Just toss together the veggies and fruit, spoon the tuna on top, and sprinkle the nuts on top, that's all. Very crunchy, tasty, and healthy.

geoka9•2h ago
Nice! I have a variation that's a bit lower end in terms of ingredients, preparation and calories, but I also never get tired of it:

- Fresh greens (I find Whole Foods prewashed green mixes kind of cheap and convenient for the purpose)

- Cherry tomatoes

- Avocado

- Olive oil, balsamic vinegar, salt and pepper

Quick and filling (avocado does the trick) and OK to eat a ton if you're in the mood for a large meal.

Fire-Dragon-DoL•2h ago
We have a version of it, avocado is just incredible with tomatoes, oil and salt.

I do love lemon or lime instead of vinegar when there is avocado, it gives a really nice kick

geoka9•2h ago
So true; and avocado also has the added benefit of filling you up "on the cheap" :) I find balsamic makes all the difference with greens and cherry tomatoes (white vinegar doesn't work as well).
Fire-Dragon-DoL•2h ago
Thanks, that looks great, I usually make a filler salad (literally meant to stop me from being hungry): lettuce, 2 large tomatoes, 2 spoons of cottage cheese. It's 90 calories total and fills my stomach. It's boring, but that's not the main meal, usually I have something else that can be up to 400 caloriea as the main dish.

How do you make sure to always have fresh kale available? It usually lasts one day in the fridge, if I'm lucky

KetoManx64•5h ago
I do the opposite of all of these except that first one on the carnivore diet. And I'm in the best shape, mental clarity, and energy levels that I've ever had. Bloodwork is all within normal levels and my thyroid issue has been completely solved.

Nutrition is really not that complex. Our ancestors were eating primarily meat for 10's of thousands of years and we are here today because it provided them enough nutrients to have healthy children that then did the same thing.

A lot of the vegetables that you are recommended to consume have anti-nutrients that are doing more harm than good. Eg: oxilates (Spinach, Swiss chard, beet greens), Phytates (Whole grains, legumes, nuts, seeds), Lectins (Beans, lentils, and some vegetables like potatoes and tomatoes), etc.

willmarch•4h ago
Our ancestors were primarily vegetarian (as in getting most of their calories from vegetables)
Fire-Dragon-DoL•4h ago
This seems to go against anything I heard about food, I'm confused now.

We also have to account for the goal difference, meat was needed to survive in a very active environment with a lifespan of maybe 30 years per individual, if you were lucky, while now we have a very inactive environment with target about 100 years.

KetoManx64•4h ago
But the reason for the shorter lifespans was not the red meat or cholesterol or fats. It was due to injuries, disease, sanitation and infections.
geoka9•2h ago
I mean, this is not scientific and all, but for the sake of the argument: your argument is not contrary to the grandparent's. I.e. a keto diet may be beneficial for a hunter-gatherer who only lives 30 years while bad for someone who lives well beyond that (because evolution never got to sort out that case due to injuries, disease, etc.).
Pooge•7h ago
I've read a few books on nutrition that are not in the same "ideological" agenda at all (e.g. How Not To Die, Why Proteins Don't Count).

The book I'm going to read next is called The Diet Myth. I wonder if some people here read it and could share their opinions. It's mostly because I'm physically active and would like to understand more how the body works (including nutritionally).

But, the more I read different ideas, the more I think that there is absolutely no consensus—for good reasons—on how to lose or gain weight. I'm expecting to get downvoted by the HN crowd because people don't want to hear anything beside "calories in - calories out", but I hope to start a polite discussion.

purple_turtle•7h ago
"calories in - calories out" is blatantly true, the problem is how to achieve it with small annoyance and willpower investment.

Or with at least disable one.

(Like answer "vastly increase your income" is blatantly true answer to "how to stop being poor" while not being sufficient to achieve anything)

Pooge•7h ago
I'm just going to say that I vastly prefer the—subjective—measure of eating healthily than counting calories.
purple_turtle•7h ago
The problem is that many people so fat that they unable to move under own power claim to be eating healthily.
Pooge•7h ago
Yes well it's the same thing as an alcoholic saying that they're not alcoholic. I said "subjective" but we have a pretty good idea of what constitutes a healthy diet—and it's one that contains a lot more vegetables than the average human eats as the original comment advised.
jacknews•6h ago
Sure, conservation of energy, but are the colories actually going in, and how, and how many coming out?

Some people can eat and eat and stay slim, even without much exercise.

purple_turtle•6h ago
> Some people can eat and eat and stay slim, even without much exercise

In my experience people described this way typically do not eat as much. For example they often drink much less calories or eat a lot on parties, but do not snack massively on typical day.

In rare cases they have something weird with health or metabolism (parasites or severe health issue that as side effects results in severe weight loss).

Pooge•5h ago
> Some people can eat and eat and stay slim, even without much exercise.

This is me. Around 10 years ago I ate McDonald's and kebab at least once a week and was very much considered slim.

Now I eat healthily and almost always of my own cooking. I also exercise, but that's for my health and not my weight.

But I also eat much much more now than I did 10 years ago.

vincekerrazzi•5h ago
I found this book absolutely fascinating because it filled in a lot of gaps that traditional nutrition wisdom seems to ignore, or hasn’t adequately answered to my satisfaction.

Calories in calories out? Sure. But then why do genetically identical twins respond differently to the same food? A huge facet of this book is understanding the difference in effect between genetics, epigenetics and microbiome on our bodies.

It’s hugely focused on experimental results and meta analyses of the effects our micro biome has on us, and it’s compelling.

Anecdotally I’ve found a number of the suggestions in the book very helpful for my wellbeing.

Highly recommend the book, mostly because it’s a very different approach to a tired subject area.

purple_turtle•7h ago
Which claims were verified and which come unverified from token generator?

> There is also a thermic effect of various macro-nutrients, which is the energy required to digest them.

How large it is compared to their energy? Is it even worth bothering to include or is it as small as effect as say food temperature?

prairieroadent•7h ago
i encourage everyone to reconsider consuming oils outside of their source material and granulated spices including salt... my experience has been much smoother from a health perspective since doing so, and i imagine there are a few others out there who would benefit as well...
hollerith•7h ago
Spices like oregano, ginger and many others disrupt the biofilm in the gut. Too much disruption would be deleterious for most people, but spices are mild in their disruptive effect, which is generally beneficial and preferable for most people to never eating any biofilm disruptors. Spices keep the biofilm to manageable levels.

I have to be careful with ginger and oregano: if I haven't taken any in many days, then I take more than a quarter teaspoon of dried oregano leaves, then too many microbes in my biofilm die, which makes me feel bad (because the dying microbes release toxins).

Point is, maybe you just need to introduce spices gradually.

prairieroadent•6h ago
i didn't know that so thanks for sharing... I would love to have access to quality ginger or oregano which I could process myself and not over-granulate it... it's just so damn hard to buy food that I'm confident isn't even slightly toxic
hollerith•5h ago
Granulated ginger frequently has heavy metals in it, which complicates things, but I've found Frontier Herbs's dried granulated ginger root to be safe, and I seem to be unusually sensitive to heavy metals in my food.
geoka9•2h ago
Don't know if it helps, but oregano is practically a weed, the way it overtakes every pot in your planter. You don't even have to water it!

As for ginger, I don't know your location, but in North America fresh organic ginger root seems to be a staple in produce stores.

readthenotes1•7h ago
The fat/carb interaction is captured in the ornish diet, which is low fat&sugar + vegetarian.

Surprisingly, if followed reasonably well it does not lead to obesity - - just The opposite.

Even with the abundance of carbohydrates you get from eating a vegetarian diet, avoiding simple carbs and avoiding mixing them with fat is another route to healthy eating

Fire-Dragon-DoL•4h ago
If you don't eat fat and you don't eat carbs on a vegetarian diet, are they eating air?

Forgive the joke, it just seems challenging.

And don't people get bored with same food over time?

willmarch•3h ago
Vegetarian diets/meals open up a much wider array of options, tastes, flavors, and textures than most people realize or have experienced
Fire-Dragon-DoL•2h ago
The diet described seemed more limited. We are not vegetarian, but eat healthy and extensive amount of veggies and fruit.

I still eat too much, but that's a me problem, the rest of the family is good.

I manage to keep the weight under control (but I can't lose weight any further, so far) by going to the gym 5 times per week and being on diet every day of my life. Of course I break diet during the weekend at times because I'm human and that aeems sufficient to never lose weight, lol

atum47•6h ago
Thanks for sharing. I'm trying my best to understand my body, my brain... Why it craves some kinds of food but doesn't others... I'm trying to get in shape, have better health and improve my cognition
CastFX•5h ago
> It takes very little energy to digest fat, a moderate amount for carbs, and a high amount for protein.

Carbs are the easiest to digest, proteins and fats are the hardest. That's why they make you feel satiated for longer.

However fats are more calorie dense (9kcal per 1g, vs 4kcal per 1g of proteins/carbs). Which means, if you're not careful, you can binge eat fats more easily (I can consume 1000kcal of almonds without even noticing).

prmph•3h ago
Yes but I should have clarified that I was talking about the overall process of deposition as fat.

Despite being complex to digest, once absorbed, dietary fat is very efficiently stored as body fat unlike carbs and protein which must undergo further steps to become fat. Once fat is in circulation, the excess is easily deposited into fat cells.