Recovering from AI Addiction

https://internetaddictsanonymous.org/internet-and-technology-addiction/signs-of-an-addiction-to-ai/

141•pera•3h ago

Comments

intellectronica•2h ago

The addiction label is a useful trick. Before criticising it, consider how labelling behaviours as "addiction" and constructing the 12-step infrastructure and community around them, makes it possible for people who suffer to find support and start improving their lives. Most of them will eventually come to understand that it wasn't "addiction" but a symptom of suffering from complex mental health problems. But without that gateway they might have suffered even more, for longer, and potentially with disastrous results.

n4r9•2h ago

Gabor Maté - a physician who worked with people with serious substance abuse disorders for many years - talks about how addiction is usually a symptom of some other underlying suffering; often trauma. The addictive behaviours act as a way to avoid confronting that pain.

VladVladikoff•1h ago

I’ve heard this take a lot in my life. And I definitely struggle with substance abuse addiction. However I’ve looked inside myself many times to find said trauma or suffering and I just don’t really see anything of note. Perhaps the only way to discover this is through some very expensive therapy sessions, or maybe vaping some 5-Meo-DMT.

lompad•58m ago

Trauma only appearing in super-deep going therapy sessions can often be False Memory Syndrome, which is an entirely different can of worms and extremely problematic. If you search really really deeply, you're going to find it, wether it exists or not.

Generally: While suppressed memory of trauma exists, the vast majority of people are aware of trauma and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. And there is clear evidence that lots of mentally well people get addicted as well, so just claiming "it's always some underlying condition" is probably not a great idea. It can, often even, be, sure. But that doesn't make it mandatory and especially doesn't allow the "I struggle with addiction, so there _must_ have been a problem beforehand" conclusion.

So honestly, I'd just not search any deeper to not risk inducing any false memories.

jxjnskkzxxhx•35m ago

Exactly. This reeks of snake oil.

I'm addicted to sugar. I have some trauma now? What trauma? My life has been relatively smooth sailing. You're right, this is just a way of creating the "need" for "therapy".

barbazoo•11m ago

The therapy industrial complex at it again /s

barbazoo•12m ago

I’ve tried counselling multiple times and I never got that eye opening clarity of what’s wrong with me. Maybe one has to do psychotherapy for that, which is unavailable to most.

gh0stcat•9m ago

For me it’s not necessarily trauma or suffering, not beyond the normal expected human “suffering” of doing boring, mundane tasks or feeling sad/frustrated/insecure, but rather feeling these generally uncomfortable feelings and having a habit of detaching from them and developing a low tolerance for handling it in general.

I generally engage more in my own flavor of addictions (caffeine, social media, workaholism) when I am more overwhelmed, understanding that I do this and why… was helpful.

everdrive•1h ago

Trauma is far too vague and far too appealing to be as useful as people believe. Everyone thinks they have some sort of trauma, and that everything can be boiled down to trauma. Some people are more inclined to addiction and this is not necessarily related to trauma.

sharifhsn•1h ago

Yes, but trauma is a useful framework to help an individual recover from addiction. While some individuals will struggle more than others, everyone has a path to avoiding addiction, and one of the best ways to do this is to build an environment for people that compensates for trauma. It’s much easier to confront things that were done to you, than to mistakes that you yourself committed.

vintermann•53m ago

I don't think it's a good framework, because trauma is about the past. Whereas for addiction or other avoidant or self-destructive behavior, the tigers are often still around.

butlike•8m ago

But what if the addiction isn't rooted in trauma? My mom smoked a few cigs when she was pregnant, which probably caused some mild ADHD symptoms, so when high school rolled around and I began experimenting with drugs to quell those symptoms, the ADHD medication felt best. If that medication felt good, I wondered what the others would feel like, so it started me down the path of addictive behavior during my formative years.

Where is the trauma in that scenario? The brain damage from the cigs? I can hardly get over that 'trauma' since I've never known a world without it. The trauma of repeatedly getting addicted to things? I DON'T hold that against myself, I just like how they feel. Where is the trauma in that scenario?

micromacrofoot•1h ago

Most people probably do have some sort of trauma, whether or not it causes ongoing problems is a different story

rwyinuse•1h ago

That may apply to things like serious substance abuse, but what about things like smartphone, social media addiction? I seriously doubt everyone glued to their phone has a trauma. Some things are simply engineered to be addictive.

I guess one could argue that modern life in industrialized world is deeply understimulating, and the phones just provide an escape from that, but that's just living conditions, not a trauma.

keiferski•1h ago

I think the reality is that no matter how manipulative these devices are, they really aren’t comparable to addictions in the sense of drug or alcohol addiction. They are essentially just learned behaviors which are reinforced constantly by peers and society.

vintermann•55m ago

Yes, I think "trauma" is a little too specific and gives the wrong associations. The point is, there was something about our situation that made it appealing to escape into the "addiction" for a moment. And depending on what the "addiction" is, it could more or less self-reinforcing.

n4r9•22m ago

You're right. For substance additions the cause could be something like a toxic relationship or job stress.

As soon as I put my smartphone away I realise I'm confronted with challenging feelings: the fear of engaging with the people around me, worrying what they're thinking, looking stupid if I'm not doing anything, or just plain boredom. So it's "avoiding psychological difficulty" that is the fundamental factor.

hollerith•54m ago

I was addicted for years (to the flow state, to which by the way I've never seen or heard a report of anyone else's being addicted).

I also wasted too much time, thousands of hours, reading and writing on the newsgroups and on the web.

There are similarities between these 2 things. For example, both reduce the amount of motivation and drive available in a life. But they feel very different, and in my experience it is extremely important to avoid the former whereas avoiding the latter is merely one more important thing in a life full of important considerations.

In an ideal world, there would be a word or short phrase for the second thing so that "addiction" could be reserved for the first thing. "Insufficient vigilance against superstimuli" is the shortest phrase I can think of right now. (I'm sad that I cannot use the word "vices" without provoking an immediate negative reaction: "vices" is shorter than "superstimuli".)

blamestross•28m ago

You are not alone! I used programming flow state as pain management for a decade.

Its one of those "paid for your mental disorder" situations that are a lot more common than people realize.

gausswho•11m ago

Whoa. I've never heard anyone put the flow state in this category.

On the one hand, it sounds preposterous - a bit like saying you're addicted to consciousness, or meditation. On the other, I can relate to how my enjoyment and pursuit of it strains my relationships with others.

It's a fascinating suggestion. I'd like to hear more about why you feel that way.

127•27m ago

I think it's a bit of both. The worse ones mental health, the harder it is to stop addictions from forming.

exe34•17m ago

I don't think it's the glued-to-the-phone that indicates trauma/addiction - it's when they have the option not to be and still choose to stay. E.g. if I'm spending time with my friends, I have no interest in my phone. When I'm on my own, it's easy to spend hours on it.

jamal-kumar•28m ago

I distinctly remember english speakers being less annoying before this guy filled everyone full of relating absolutely everything to trauma. It just seems like a massively reductionist point of view in a world of people more complex than that

Synaesthesia•24m ago

My initial.reactiom to his book on ADHD was similar, I couldn't believe that it could all be reduced to trauma.

I've really come around to that theory though and I think he's very wise.

We need to take a close look at the way we are living our lives under capitalism, the decisions we're forced to.make, and the way we treat our children.

Willingham•55m ago

It’s important to understand that all 12 step programs(all of which are based on AA) approach addiction as a spiritual disease, and the program offers a spiritual solution. 12 step programs also teach that addiction is a progressive disease, and there is no permanent ‘fix’, but rather a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of one’s spiritual condition. Here is a concise summarization of the 12 step design for living: ‘reverse selfishness, get out and help others’. According to 12 step programs, if you stop working the program, addiction will come back in full force.

TechDebtDevin•20m ago

Its also important to understand the most of the successes sang by 12 step evangalists are coming from the <5% it works on.

Im not against it but it simply is not the only cure for addiction. In fact its provenly a very bad program for the 95% that cant hang.

Much better CBT and medical interventions out there and millions of people are told every year to ignore them because of 12 step evangalist.

If the west had the answer to addiction in the form of 12 step, we probably wouldnt have the highest rates of addiction in the world and is probably a sign of societal trauma that no amount of meetings is going to help.

butlike•6m ago

The only thing that worked for me is 'trying to do better than I did the previous day' with the understanding it's not a linear curve, but a spiky graph that trends upwards.

ants_everywhere•15m ago

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people "lie" about psychological terms because they feel it enables a greater good.

I see the point you're making. But we as a society do this a lot, and it hasn't always historically been good for the people who are actually affected by the disorders.

Historically, this has been done by therapists who aren't well connected to the research world. They think they find a framework that works for their patients and promote it. Sometimes it becomes a fad despite not being backed by evidence. It's not always clear what the consequences are, but a common consequence is that many people miss out on actually figuring out what's going on with them and getting evidence-based treatment.

I'm not saying that there is no AI addiction. I'll leave that to the professionals. But I do want to gently push back on the idea that we should raise something to the level of pathology because it seems useful.

And as the parent of kids, there are a lot of habits that become compulsions and where you experience withdrawal if you stop. Reading is one in my family. Exercise is something that's rewarding and you feel bad if you stop. But exercise addiction is a very specific disorder. Just some stuff to keep in mind.

IlikeKitties•11m ago

Let's not forget that the "12-step-infrastructure" is a VERY American thing based around mostly christian religious nonsense and is by design completely inaccessible for people without a belief in fairy tales. It's obvious that the modern society requires addiction counseling and rehabilitation facilities, what we don't need is even more outlets for cults of all color to pray on people in dire situations.

Just the very 12 Steps themselves are enough to show you that[0]:

> We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

> Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him

> Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

> Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

> Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

> Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

> Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

> Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

> Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

> Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

> Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

kingkawn•9m ago

folks doing their best with what they've got, a huge portion of the population this language speaks to, your contempt is not helpful to them

tayo42•8m ago

What do alcoholics do for recovery outside the US?

IlikeKitties•6m ago

In civilized countries? Get support from Doctors, licensed psychologist and addiction counselors. In less civilized countries? Die.

bloqs•5m ago

>pray on people

bravo

IlikeKitties•4m ago

I'm gonna leave that in.

Aurornis•5m ago

> Let's not forget that the "12-step-infrastructure" is a VERY American thing based around mostly christian religious nonsense and is by design completely inaccessible for people without a belief in fairy tales.

One of my old friends was a staunch atheist since middle school. He joined AA after some struggles.

He said it was no problem at all. They told him his “higher power” could be anything he chose, such as nature or the universe. The prayer part was just meditation.

I don’t know if his experience was typical or not, but he didn’t think it was a problem at all.

I haven’t kept up with him for a while but last we talked he was still doing well, many years later.

diggan•2h ago

> ITAA is a Twelve-Step fellowship of individuals who support each other in recovering from internet and technology addiction. This includes social media addiction, phone addiction, video addiction, television addiction, gaming addiction, news addiction, pornography addiction, dating apps, online research, online shopping, or any other digital activity that becomes compulsive and problematic.

Seems to be about general IT/computing addiction (too), which seems even better than a group focusing only on "AI Addiction". Seems like a very active effort (online calendar has multiple events per day), across multiple countries and languages.

I haven't participated (or even seen this before) myself, but as far as I can tell, it's basically a fork of AA and their methodology, but I've also not participated in AA so maybe they're different in some major way? Otherwise it seems like a good approach, take something that is somewhat working, make it more specific and hopefully people into that specific thing can get the help they need.

FearNotDaniel•2h ago

I've taken part in 12 Step programmes and even occasionally attended AA meetings. After browsing the site for a while I can confirm it seems pretty faithful to the AA methodology, except for the addition of the "top/middle/bottom line" classification of behaviours - because in AA sobriety is universally defined as "abstaining from all alcohol" whereas this fellowship is not proposing that members should never use the internet, so the members need to define for themselves which specific patterns of behaviour qualify as "relapse" and which are risky.

This addition is not new or unique to ITAA, as I understand it was pioneered as the "three circles" model by Sex Addicts Anonymous and has been adopted by other recovery fellowships where the definition of clean/sober is not so binary or universal.

thaumasiotes•2h ago

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-03-21

stpedgwdgfhgdd•2h ago

I asked Chatgpt whether this was a joke. And asked Claude and Le chat for confirmation.

louwrentius•2h ago

The '12 steps'[0] program reminds us of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous).

People should be aware that AA is actually a religious organisation, forcing people to adhere to religious doctrine. For more info see [1].

I predict tons of people who claim AA helped them in some way or another. There are also tons reports of abuse of vulnerable people by AA participants and leadership.

If you every se a "12-step" program anywhere — run. There are other options.

[0]: https://internetaddictsanonymous.org/12-steps-of-itaa/ [1]: https://secularhumanism.org/2009/04/cont-exposing-the-myth-o...

0_____0•2h ago

Have you been to AA? I have. The implementation differs in different groups and different locations. The one I went to was queer-oriented, and while they adhered to the "higher power" language, they made it clear that this could really be anything, including the fellowship of AA.

nemo•1h ago

I've been to a number of AA meetings trying to find less religious groups. While some have members who aren't religious, the 12 steps are a religious doctrine. The entire method and approach are derived from the Oxford Group/Moral ReArmament, and the structure is a cultish church structure. I've yet to see an AA meetings without the 12 Steps, and those steps are religiously oriented - you are submitting to some form of god (a higher power may not be God, but it's a god), and repenting for your sins.

AA can work for some people but studies of AA's efficacy show it's effectively a placebo effect. I'd recommend against it, personally, since the organization itself is really odious and the suicide rate of AA members is far higher than people in any other treatment form, and there's been a lot of cases of sexual abuse covered up and other typical cult behaviors.

megaloblasto•35m ago

I had a friend go through AA. He doesn't do heroin anymore, which is great, but he is pretty big into Jesus now, which is a bit disheartening to see. Better then overdosing for sure.

cout•2h ago

As a long-time compulsive Internet user, I am aware of the emotional and psychological risks of this new technology. For now, the ability to find information faster (with certain caveats) means I actually spend less time on the internet than before.

But chatgpt for example showers the user with compliments. I'm sure this encourages user engagement, but it is eerily similar to the "love bombing" of cults from the 70s and 80s. I don't know how to reconcile the long-term risks with the huge short-term gains in productivity.

Are there any technologies or apps that are worse than others, particularly for people with obsessive/compulsive tendencies?

mythrwy•1h ago

The machine flattery is a big turn off for me.

No, my simple and obvious statement was not "a deep and insightful point". No I am not "in the top 1% of people who can recognize this".

The other thing that drives me crazy is the constant positive re-framing with bold letters. "You aren't lazy, you are just *re-calibrating*! A wise move on your part!".

I don't find it ego stroking at all. It's obviously fake and patently stupid and that verbiage just mucks up the conversation.

rixed•1h ago

I feel exactly the same, but I believe this is not universal. I see a similarity with the repulsion I feel when someone is being nice to me because of a job (or more generally, when someone address me "as a customer"). Not everyone react the same, and many people, despite of being perfectly aware that the attention they get is purely calculated, are totally fine with that. It's just fare game to them. I would not be surprised if the same applied to IA obsequiosity: "yes of course it's flattery, would you prefer to be insulted?" would probably be their answer to that dilemna.

recursive•48m ago

There is something between flattery and insults. Just stick to the facts.

esperent•16m ago

> in the top 1% of people who can recognize this

I've never had an AI respond to me with this kind of phrasing. General psychophancy, sure, but nothing that obnoxious. I haven't used ChatGPT much in the last year though, does it speak that way?

thfuran•8m ago

It (and the rest of the blather in responses) is one of the two biggest factors keeping me from using ChatGPT more. But I assume they have numbers showing that people for some reason want it.

oc1•2h ago

''' Do I ever use AI applications to quickly check something and then discover that hours have passed? Do I ever swear off or set limits around my use of AI, and then break my commitments? Do I have binges on AI applications that last all day or late into the night? Do I turn to AI whenever I have a free moment? Does my use of AI lead me to neglect my personal hygiene, nutritional needs, or physical health? Do I feel isolated, emotionally absent, distracted, or anxious when I’m not using my AI applications? Does my use of AI contribute to conflict or avoidance in personal relationships? Have my digital behaviors jeopardized my studies, finances, or career? Do I hide or lie about the amount of time I spend using AI or the kinds of AI-generated content I consume? Do I feel guilt or shame around my use of AI? '''

Hmm i answered almost all of them with Yes, but i'm also a developer using AI and developing AI apps. So not sure what to make out of it.

fhd2•2h ago

"Don't get high on your own supply" comes to mind :P

im3w1l•1h ago

I think you know exactly what to make of it.

imdsm•1h ago

We label everything as an addiction if we do it too much and enjoy it.

But what if the thing we do is good?

Addicted to eating vegetables, addicted to healthy living, etc.

If a developer is using AI for example and they spend a lot of time doing it, and they're feeling fulfilled and happy, then that's fine.

And that's what it has to come down to: does it have a net benefit or net detriment?

JW_00000•1h ago

But look at the questions:

"Does my use of AI lead me to neglect my personal hygiene, nutritional needs, or physical health?"

(compare with: "Does my eating of vegetables lead me to neglect my personal hygiene, nutritional needs, or physical health?")

"Have my digital behaviors jeopardized my studies, finances, or career?"

(compare with: "Have my healthy living behaviors jeopardized my studies, finances, or career?")

All questions are about negative impact on your life. To me it doesn't matter whether you label it "addiction". If you answer yes to most of these questions, whatever the subject, it is severely affecting your life.

esperent•9m ago

[delayed]

_se•1h ago

Addiction is addiction. You see this a lot in endurance sports (triathlon etc.): people can get addicted to training and racing, and despite these being "healthy" things in general, their families, relationships, and lives outside of the sport are damaged, often irreversible.

Doing anything "too much" is bad for you.

JW_00000•1h ago

I would say all questions except maybe the first one, are about impact on your personal life: "late into the night", "whenever I have a free moment", "personal hygiene", "personal relationships", etc. So if you answer yes to them, I don't think you can use work as excuse; it is affecting your life outside work.

bilsbie•1h ago

> Do I ever use AI applications to quickly check something and then discover that hours have passed?

This used to happen on Wikipedia all the time back in the day. It was called going down a rabbit hole. Actually a cool phenomenon IMO.

samsolomon•2h ago

As an aside—my therapist encouraged me to go pretty deep into twelve step literature. The core of it is dealing with fears and resentments. So many damaging behaviors start as coping mechanisms for dealing with these issues.

I was pretty skeptical initially, but it turns out I also have a ton of fear and resentment that I never thought existed. My stubbornness strikes again! But if you're able to deal with and process your fears and resentments and then switch bad coping mechanisms to good ones—that will improve your life substantially.

A lot of it has been surprisingly eye-opening to me.

thibaultamartin•2h ago

Do you have specific books to recommend?

norome•1h ago

i always recommend Addictive Thinking: Understanding Self-Deception [Twerski M.D., Abraham J] on the topic. A short and insightful read that goes one level deeper than looking at any particular substance. He focuses on the contradictory thinking that addicts use to avoid seeing reality.

samsolomon•1h ago

The AA big book, as it is known. It's actually a small, but very thick book. It's the basis for all twelve step programs.

The main exercises related to my comment are writing out resentments as they occur—who/what wronged you, why that hurt and what part we may have played. Same with fears—what they are, how do they affect us.

Honestly, a lot of it is so simple, but it really forces you to think about these things.

kilroy123•18m ago

What about reading about Stoicism? I have a couple of close family members who are deep into recovery.

The more they talk about it, the more it just sounds like repacked Stoicism.

Trasmatta•8m ago

I'm not a fan of stoicism, because I see it often used as a way to bypass actual emotional processing. Sometimes we need to actually fully feel and process the "negative" emotions, otherwise they get stuck in our system.

_joel•2h ago

I must be an addict, I read 12 step as 12 factor

bilsbie•1h ago

Does Anyone else actually want more AI addiction? I really forget to use it when it could be a useful resource.

zb3•1h ago

Addiction? I keep hearing "get the most of AI or become irrelevant", so I guess this should be tackled too.

recursive•46m ago

I can't wait to be irrelevant so AI will leave me alone.

mark_l_watson•54m ago

Interesting article! My take is that AI Addiction is a subset of Digital Addiction. A few weeks ago, I was with extended family and everyone but me was staring ‘lovingly’ at their phones. I tend towards Digital Addiction myself, and I fight back by not carrying my phone when I run errands and try to spend at least a little time every day in nature.

The Apple Watch is a good compromise: some ability to get calls and text messages, but not a very ‘addictive device.’

oc1•27m ago

Probably why i end up always returning the watch.

deadbabe•20m ago

Please avoid starting your comments with flattering statements, respond directly. Thanks.

deadbabe•18m ago

Tell a student or software engineer they cannot use LLMs to do their work anymore. They will clutch their LLM tightly, like an alcoholic clutches his bottle.

k8sToGo•16m ago

How can you say that LLM is the same as alcohol? If I use something that is useful a lot, it does not mean I am addicted...

deadbabe•15m ago

Alcohol helps people get through their day and social situations.

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[delayed]

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