From that, any number of conclusions are possible, including perhaps:
* The level of innovation at those companies is high. Certainly the 90s tech booms were actually very innovative and profitable.
Every single one of these "fake it till you make it" AI CEO/Founders are betting they are the Amazon.com and not the Pets.com... but if they are the Pets.com then what is the downside?
The CEO of pets.com certainly didn't end up out on the streets for being the biggest disaster of one of the largest bubbles and effectively burning billions of investor dollars (including institutions investing pensions and retirements funds).
https://www.quiverquant.com/insiders/1780458/Julie%20Wainwri...
You can buy a hell of a lot of dogs and socks for that much.
If you're a CEO of a giant AI corp you're currently racing for superintelligence (meta-bubble).
The rest of us apes are flinging AI slop at each other until we've saturated each other in AI slop.
I don't really know what will happen, just offering my observation (ape noises)
During peak crypto madness vagueposting was an extremely effective market manipulation tool. I know people who made a lot of money on unconfirmed rumors in hours but of course it was just zero-sum gambling - the ”early adopters” made their money at the expense of the latecomers. No value was generated.
People don’t even need to be convinced that AGI/ASI is near, just ”but what if there’s a chance?”. It’s similar psychological tricks as selling lottery tickets.
Data has only driven advertising, and it's done it in such a botched way that it's tearing down the whole discipline of advertising. These companies know all the little tidbits of information about all of us that they need to put the right products directly in front of our eyes multiple times per day, and they still get it wrong.
Advert engagement goes down, people who use advertising realise their budgets are being wasted on the wrong audience and the whole thing will pop. It was naïve to ever believe that data really means anything. At a certain scale it just becomes loads of noise.
This is not remotely true. I mean it's so incredibly not true I wonder how you came to believe this.
Haven't you ever heard of how hedge funds pay for cellular data to understand retail store traffic, or how satellite photos help them estimate the fullness of gas tanks at ports to predict pricing?
Or how data about predicted electrical pricing based on usage helps factories schedule energy-intensive production during times of low pricing?
Or how aircraft maintenance companies like AAR rely on "big data" to position replacement parts in a globally distributed system of warehouses to reduce the time it takes to repair aircraft (their contracts are based on airline uptime), thereby reducing passenger delays due to mechanical issues?
Or how farms use weather and satellite data to deal with droughts, identify areas to spray, and estimate competitor yields for the purposes of planning?
Or how governments now conduct surveillance of pathogens and drug use through sewer water data?
Or how semiconductor companies use massive amounts of data collected from production line sensors to massively increase yields and reduce chip prices, despite the complexity of chip production having increased massively?
You benefit directly or indirectly from companies using data all the time.
I got a bit carried away in my original statement and undersold data a little bit. I think the point of the statement at the time ("data is the new oil" as an article in The Economist) was mostly hinging on data for use in digital advertising, but I didn't provide any of that context in my original post, and I was mostly considering user data.
Really, someone, just show me how you vibecode that seemlingly simple feature https://github.com/JaneySprings/DotRush/issues/89 without having some deep knowledge of the codebase. As of now, I don't believe this works.
While Ghostty is mostly in Zig, the example Mitchell Hashimoto is using there is the Swift code in Ghostty. He has said on Twitter that he's had good success with Swift for LLMs but it's not as good with Zig.
I think it doesn't work as well with Zig because there's more recent breaking changes not in the training dataset, it still sort of works but you need to clean up after it.
The weirdest part about that is Haskell should be way easier due to the compiler feedback and strong static typing.
What I fear most is that it will have a chilling effect on language diversity: instead of choosing the best language for the job, companies might mandate languages that are known to work well with LLMs. That might mean typescript and python become even more dominant :(.
I share similar feelings. I don't want to shit on Python and JS/TS. Those are languages that get stuff done, but they are a local optimum at best. I don't want the whole field to get stuck with what we have today. There surely is place for a new programming language that will be so much better that we will scratch our heads why we ever stuck with what we have today. But when LLMs work "good enough" why even invent a new programming language? And even if that awesome language exists today, why adopt it then? It's frustrating to think about. Even language tooling like static analyzers and linters might get less love now. Although I'm cautiously optimistic, as these tools can feed into LLMs and thus improve how they work. So at least there is an incentive.
or the "humans make mistakes too" crowd
or the "just wait, we are at an inflection point in the sigmoid curve" crowd
In all these cases, it's very likely no AI shop is going to have a monopoly on the tech, and cartels are not very likely, considering China (and maybe Europe) is in the game as well.
In a gold rush, sell shovels, and the company's having a monopoly in shovels in Nvidia.
But anyone taking a vibe coded project with no human understanding of the code produced and puts it straight into production is going to have a bad time.
- a better summarizing google for some queries
- snippet generator
but has not changed any workflows.
Looking to take on more risk in equity investments is just as likely to end up with you going broke as it is to get outsize returns.
You should look at the chances of your business becoming that successful. They are equally slim. And you have a lot more personal exposure if your business fails vs. if one fails that you only invested your money in and not your time and health.
There have been examples where things look like a bubble to some market participants, but turn out to be more or less a good reflection of that thing's future value.
AI is uniquely hard to value too because there's so many exponentials which may or may not occur, with those exponentials both having the potential to make products exponentially more valuable or redundant.
There's also different parts of the AI stack and again it's really hard to see which part of the AI stack holds secure value, perhaps with the exception of the hardware providers.
Anyway, I suspect in a few years those calling AI a bubble will mostly be proven wrong, but that's just my sense of things.
Which is it? :)
Bubbles looks very impressive until they pop, most fall for them, that is why they are bubbles.
Another example is "Devin" or whatever the parent company is. Recently acquired some unknown company and they are cooking their books for the next acquisition
Of course the steam engine was revolutionary. That doesn’t excuse or legitimize the nonsense.
Dropbox or SpaceX wasn't valued at many trillions of dollars though. Just because its very useful doesn't mean it lives up to the biggest hype ever in human history in terms of monetary investment.
For reference, those 10 companies are: Nvidia, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Meta, Braodcom, Alphabet (Class A), Alphabet again (Class C), Tesla, Berkshire.
This isn't a pets.com situation.
These companies are ENORMOUS cash engines with incredibly well-proven moats operating in an extremely monopoly-friendly political climate. Nothing like this existed in the 90s. Microsoft, but anti-trust still had some teeth.
The author makes a comparison between these companies and the rest of corporate America, arguing (implicitly) that the forward P/E of these ten symbols is too high relative to the rest of the S&P 500 index.
So let's look at the flip side. Many of the other companies in the S&P are vulnerable to these exact players' moats and pricing power. It's a zero-sum game and the winner is clear, so of course the winner's P/E looks really high compared to the expected loser.
Every single one of them has an AWS bill. Every single one of them has a big Windows/Office install base. Every single one of them probably has a huge apple install base. Every single one of them needs to pay to play in the App Store.
And many of them are also in the unenviable position of being on the losing side of an unfair competition in their actual core business. Walmart/HD/Coca-Cola vs Amazon. IBM/Oracle vs AWS. Or other complicated market dynamics that pose only upside to the big guys and potential downside to the rest (Biotechs vs Amazon Pharmacy).
The remainders are competing margins away from one another, are vulnerable to disruption of mid-market non-S&P players (or similarly sized companies that just aren't on the public markets -- see the huge size of privacy capital relative to the 90s). Some also face significant tariff risk. Think banks, consumer goods.
What percent of the difference in P/Es between the best and rest is justifiable on the thesis that we are entering a multi-decade period of (1) tech feudalism and (2) unpredictable populist fits that wreck havoc on everyone except the tippy top of the echelon who can blow enough cash to control the narrative?
[1]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gartner_Hype_Cycle.s...
Today is it just a matter of cash and DC capacity?
JCM9•3h ago
This is a longstanding predictable pattern in tech. Most of these “AI companies” will go bust or become a shell of their former self and sold off for parts. The tech will be commoditized and become pretty ubiquitous across the board but not a profit center in its own right.
windexh8er•3h ago
nancyminusone•2h ago
dinfinity•1h ago
Yizahi•33m ago
sheepscreek•2h ago
Workaccount2•3h ago
Those layoffs were a make or break moment for tech.
dreamcompiler•3h ago
ern_ave•3h ago
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Twitter went private. It's no longer "on the market." Its market value is $0.
> It did collapse as a place where decent human beings cared to gather
That's your personal opinion, and though you're welcome to it, I think it's heavily colored by your personal politics, and doesn't reflect reality.
Before its purchase by Musk, Twitter was absolutely full of speech that I personally consider bad ...but apparently you think is okay.
I consider every tweet in this image[1] to be pretty bad. Most of them are by verified accounts. None of them were banned. And apparently you thought this was okay, and that these were """decent human beings"""
[1] https://i.imgur.com/802gCWz.jpeg
brookst•2h ago
Musk paid $44B and it is generally considered to be worth less than $10B today[1], though his open participation in political corruption has resulted in valuations all over the map, including $44B[2].
It’s kind of Schroedinger’s valuation; if he and Trump are having a spat it’s worth less because there’s a risk Trump orders it shut down or seized or whatever, if he and Trump make up the company is a a part of the ruling party’s government apparatus.
But as far as actual product value, outside of a clubhouse for red hats, it’s pretty close to zero. They have to literally sue companies to force them to advertise[3], which would be laughable if creeping fascism wasn’t so bad that it’s actually a successful strategy. Any attempt to claim free speech high ground while suing companies for declining to advertise is incredibly disingenuous.
1. https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/30/24258129/musks-44-billion...
2. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/mar/19/value-elo...
3. https://www.npr.org/2025/02/01/nx-s1-5283271/elon-musk-lawsu...
ekianjo•2m ago
and they are usually massively off.
epistasis•2h ago
Twitter's valuation with investors was based on the idea of heavy growth. It wasn't even profitable when purchased, and when it did make a profit, it was on the order of $1B/year, nothing that would validate it's market cap.
Musk squashed all potential for growth. Twitter advertisers, users, and the hope of a brighter future are all gone now. A well-established brand has been abandoned for an amorphous X, on which it's pretty much impossible to establish a new brand.
Musk has destroyed so value much from Twitter with bone-headed moves that if he had to answer to investors, he'd be out in a second.
blockmarker•2h ago
"If you care about what I say you are weird, and you care because you are an evil person". The first comment was obviously political, pretending otherwise is only because you are disingenuous, or because you are so polarized that you are unable to understand that your beliefs are politics and not universally accepted facts. You can zoom on the image and see the tweets. These are tweets from verified people before Musk, which were people that Twitter employees personally verified and thought deserved a recognition. Tell me, do you think "Kill all the White People!" and "white genocide is good", are things that good people say?
epistasis•1h ago
No, I literally can not. The interface of imgur does not allow zooming in to see what is in the Tweets! Collecting that many tweets into such a massive image is the behavior of a crazy person, likely motivated by crazy politics. I do not know what's in the Tweets that's supposed to be objectionable, but the obsessive collection of stuff like that, and spending the time to create such an unreadable way.
> "If you care about what I say you are weird, and you care because you are an evil person"
Who are you quoting? Who brought evil into this? Very weird thing to start your comment with, what is your point?
blockmarker•42m ago
If it's no longer fit for decent humans, the meaning is that only evil people stay there. You understand this, you only pretend not to.
>the behavior of a crazy person, likely motivated by crazy politics. >Very weird thing
You don't even bother to refute the argument, you only insult.
>No, I literally can not. The interface of imgur does not allow zooming in to see what is in the Tweets!
I zoomed on pc, Firefox, and just did it too on my smartphone, Firefox. Your argument now depends on outright lies.
But I also quoted two tweets for your benefit, both allowed and enabled by Old Twitter.
Does a decent human being say "Kill all the White People!" and "genocide white people"? Yes or no.
ern_ave•2h ago
> You are the one bringing politics into this
No, that's not true. The person I responded to characterized the old, pre-musk twitter as "a place where decent human beings cared to gather" and contrasted that with the current twitter.
What possible non-political interpretation of that viewpoint is there? He is clearly saying that when twitter was run by people on the political-left, and (for example) Trump was banned, that was "decent human beings."
My rebuttal is to show a large list of verified accounts making hateful statements. My point is, those statements were allowed under pre-musk twitter. Hate was allowed before, and it's allowed now.
The only difference is that the person I responded to finds the former brand of it acceptable.
Which part of this analysis is incorrect?
> Even collecting that image is odd and strange
It's odd and strange to pretend that you believe I personally collected those examples. You're well aware of how the internet works. You know that someone else created that image.
DonHopkins•1h ago
DonHopkins•2h ago
You created your account just to post that, so you obviously don't want your real name associated with your own personal politics, which is understandable, but cowardly, and undermines the nakedly partisan political points you're trying to score by carrying the water for fascists. How about finding some personal politics to believe that you're not embarrassed to put your real name by?
ern_ave•2h ago
No, I'm sorry. That's not true. You have misunderstood the comment you replied to.
Should I explain it or would you prefer to figure it out for yourself?
Hint: the guy I replied to said, in essence, "it used to be a place for descent people, but now it's not" ...and I showed a large list of verified users being bad. Conclusion: his position doesn't reflect reality.
DonHopkins•1h ago
lenkite•2h ago
No longer true. In March 2025, X Corp. was acquired by xAI, Musk's artificial intelligence company. The deal, an all-stock transaction, valued X at $33 billion, with a full valuation of $45 billion when factoring in $12 billion in debt.
Investor sentiment through secondary share trades still prices the company at $44 billion.
disgruntledphd2•2h ago
To be fair, the banks did offload the debt at par (two years later) so some people think X/Twitter is worth some money.
exe34•3h ago
gatinsama•3h ago
graemep•3h ago
That was because Twitter was massively overstaffed. Are all these other businesses also overstaffed? The result of cheap money? Are they all atu
bentt•3h ago
c16•2h ago
FirmwareBurner•3h ago
What's the proof it was the only tech company being overstaffed?
For example Meta doubled its headcount during the pandemic without any increase in market share or new products. How do you explain that not being overstaffed?
graemep•3h ago
FirmwareBurner•2h ago
xnx•2h ago
Meta probably overhired, but if the overall market grows immensely due to even more commerce moving online because of the pandemic, it would make sense to hire a lot more people even without a change in market share or new products.
moomin•2h ago
mock-possum•3h ago
apercu•3h ago
Traubenfuchs•3h ago
FirmwareBurner•3h ago
junga•2h ago
kalleboo•2h ago
moomin•2h ago
nancyminusone•2h ago
sealeck•2h ago
Have you looked at a graph of Twitter revenue and profit recently (hint: it is very low). Nobody has ever claimed that you cannot fire all the employees and keep Twitter online with a skeleton crew; the claim has always been that you can't do that _and remain a viable business_.
Workaccount2•2h ago
sealeck•2h ago
> The only insight we have
This is untrue. There's fairly credible reporting (e.g. in the FT) that Twitter's reveue numbers have bottomed and they are not making money. Of course, a lot of these problems are being disguised by the fact that Elon Musk has merged in xAI (and investors are very happy to pile money into AI without even the slightest due diligence).
ekianjo•7m ago
furyofantares•1h ago
Lots of people claimed that, it was a common claim, even on HN, which was odd to me because I felt it had been common for 10 years on HN to wonder what the heck these companies are doing with 80% of their employees.
AIPedant•2h ago
weinzierl•3h ago
I was around for the .com boom and it feels very different. I experienced the boom as exuberant without limits, the current situation is much more nuanced.
apercu•3h ago
noosphr•2h ago
Applejinx•3h ago
weinzierl•2h ago
So my question to the youngsters in the handbasket:
Do you feel pure and completely untroubled for being part of something big that is certainly not going away anymore? Do you look into your future and see bright skies without the slightest hint of a cloud?
pjmlp•2h ago
arevno•2h ago
NVDA has a P/E of 55, which is definitely elevated, but nowhere near the 230+ that CSCO had at that time. TO say nothing of SUNW.
The big AI labs are definitely losing money, but they're doing it on the back of tens of (rapidly growing) billions of dollars in ARR, versus the dot com e-commerce and portal flameouts who would go public on (maybe) a million in revenue, at best.
We also have large AI teams at FAANG who are being funded directly by the fat margins of these companies, whose funding is not dependent on the whims of VC, PE or public markets.
These times are not really comparable.
potatototoo99•2h ago
kasey_junk•2h ago
AIPedant•2h ago
digitcatphd•3h ago
Sorry, but weren’t these valuations escalated because of low interest rates and quantitative easing? Perhaps combined with increased concentration in Top 10 by investors navigating uncertainty?
Typical BS coming from a mega fund only supported by management fees. not saying AI isn’t hyped but this is laughable.
thunky•3h ago
jstummbillig•3h ago
petesergeant•2h ago
I would love to know how much of the inference I pay for is being paid for by VC cash: I suspect a lot of it.
xnx•2h ago
Definitely a lot of VC subsidies for OpenAI and Anthropic, none for Google.
petesergeant•1h ago
jstummbillig•2h ago
Right now there seem to be roughly two paths, when it comes to frontier-level LLMs: Meta just not giving a fuck, spending instagram money and pretending it's a business, and whatever Deepseek is doing that might make it both good and also super cost-effective (and there it's even less clear, how much of it is real and what the actual costs are).
optimlayer•2h ago
dontlaugh•2h ago
Most of the LLM applications are either entirely useless or trivially reproduced with much simpler free models (or even entirely non-“AI” methods).
xnx•2h ago
chii•2h ago
xnx•1h ago
It's so surprising. So much money at stake and there is zero competition for hardware purchase. Google's Tensor chips are excellent, but can only be rented.
esafak•2h ago
Curiously, nvidia's P/E ratio is lower than it was two years ago!
high_na_euv•1h ago
ParanoidShroom•2h ago
Spooky23•2h ago
80% of the hype is about 20% of the bullshit. And the bullshit attracts 80% of the dollars. The current cohort of leaders are Jedi at separating sovereign wealth and markets from their treasure.
chrisweekly•2h ago
Unless it's leveraged by skilled experts, AI-generated code is the payday loan / high-interest credit card of tech debt.
pfisherman•1h ago
There is no cart before the horse here. AI is coming for you, not the other way around. The pessimistic takes are underestimating the impact by at least a couple orders of magnitude. Think smart phones as a lower bound.
I have no idea what capacity people here work with AI, but given my view and experience the pessimistic takes I commonly see on here do not seem realistic.
ZephyrBlu•1h ago
pfisherman•1h ago
Yizahi•27m ago
danaris•1h ago
With the internet, there was a clear value proposition for the vast majority of use cases. Even if some of the specific businesses were poorly-conceived or overly optimistic, the underlying technology was very obviously a) growing organically, b) going to be something everyone used & wanted, and c) a commodity.
All three of those parts are vital for a massive boom like that.
Generative AI is growing some, yes, but a lot of the growth is being pushed by the companies creating or otherwise massively invested in gen-AI. And yes, many people try out ChatGPT's webapp, but that's mostly a gimmick—and frankly, many of the cases where people are attempting to use it for more are fairly awful cautionary tales (eg, the people trying to use it as a therapist, and instead getting a cheerleader that confirms their worst impulses).
Gen-AI may be useful to some people, but it's not going to be a central feature of most people's lives—at least not in the forms it exists in today, or what can be clearly extrapolated from them. Yes, it can help some with coding—with mixed results—but not everyone's a programmer. Not everyone's even an office worker. The internet has obvious useful applications for a plumber or a lawyer; if I hired one of those and they said they were using generative AI to help them in their work, I'd fire them instantly. There are already a bunch of (both amusing and harrowing) stories of lawyers getting reamed out in court for using gen-AI to help them write legal filings.
OpenAI may or may not have a robust moat—I've seen people arguing both ways; personally I suspect lean slightly toward the "not" side—but generative AI as a whole is not something that's an interchangeable commodity the way internet access, or even hosting, is. First of all, in order to use the models that are touted as being advanced enough to actually look like more than spicy autocorrect, you need a serious GPU farm. Second of all, AFAIK, those models are being kept private by the big players like Google and OpenAI. That means that if you build your business on generative AI, unless you're able to both fork out for a massive hardware investment and do your own training to match what the big boys are already doing, you're going to be 100% dependent on another specific for-profit company for your entire business model. That's not a sound business decision, especially during this time where both the technology and the legal aspect of generative AI are still so much in flux.
Generative AI may be here to stay, but it's not going to take over the world the way the internet did.
pfisherman•1h ago
> Gen-AI may be useful to some people, but it's not going to be a central feature of most people's lives—at least not in the forms it exists in today, or what can be clearly extrapolated from them…
The problem is that you are going to have to compete with people who are using AI. There is a learning curve, and some people are better at using it than others. Some people know how to use it really well.
bwfan123•1h ago
- smartphones in every pocket changed behaviors around entertainment, communication, and commerce
what behaviors of people will gen-ai change ? perhaps the way we learn (instead of google, we head over to a chatbot), perhaps coding .. all up in the air, and unclear at the moment.
npalli•1h ago
Not it doesn't. I was around and we didn't have an entire group of GenX gang warning about the .com crash everywhere, everytime. Compared to nonsense metrics like eyeballs, this time we have real revenue and the biggest companies are tech. It might end in some crash but nothing like the .com one.
4b11b4•1h ago