Think about it... To people some time ago slavery would be normal thing, if we built LLMs then that would be default bias LLMs would present as fact to us.
Exactly. Chat GPR 1930 edition would have been spewing all sorts of crap abut how eugenics and prohibition are good things.
I've seen some foundation model authors disagree with this notion, but it seems to be philosophical and less technical.
Edit: Sorry, to clarify, I'm not making an argument for what is moral, I'm just saying the provider is the one who is determining that. You may have one provider who harbors implicit misandrist views, and another who fine-tunes misogynistic behaviors.
The difficult part is you can’t (it’s not responsible to) go full libertarian on this. You have to draw the line somewhere and LLM providers are tiptoeing around morals/ethics/regulations and things can change day to day as to what’s allowed for these models to output.
Of course it is. And we’ve known that to be a problem since before the current rise of LLMs.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/01/21/137783/algorithm...
Note the 2019 date. But I’m certain I’ve seen reports earlier.
And as a sibling comment put it: “There is no unbiased training data. That's the problem.” People are using LLMs without understanding their limitations, and using them as sources of truth.
[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Math_Destruction
However the lesson that LLMs are biased isn't lessened by the reason why they are biased. Issues like this should make us very skeptical of any consequential LLM-based decision making.
And this is the best argument to demonstrate they are not smart
Do to give an example if you present the LLM with two people that are exactly the same except they have different color shirts I think it will suggest slightly different salary for one than the other for no clear reason and without any obvious bias in the training set.
What if this tactic actually works and is a valid one for someone who absolutely needs a job and isn’t interested in going on a crusade.
Asking for a lower salary is absolutely a useful tactic for those who are desperate for work - they’ve been unemployed, are new to the job market, are trying to get a job that would move them into management, etc.
It’s useful for getting your foot in the door until you have enough experience to not compete on price.
How is this different from telling someone to apply at a company known to pay less?
I’ve done this myself, and it worked - I got the job.
What you’re demonstrating is known as a luxury belief.
Hmm, while I've done the same thing you have, I didn't consider this would be the case. I'm not sure why you've been downvoted for this comment.
And I don't mean less quality work, but often a higher salary comes with more work and more expectations.
Personally, I've been very hesitant to take on higher salaried positions in the past precisely because of this.
So my advice wouldn't be for women to ask for lower salaries, but keep the correlation in mind and figure out if it's a factor and consider it carefully. A higher salary often means less personal freedom. Again, not true in all cases, but true in some.
More broadly, can a comment on a forum thread that isn't directed at anyone in particular really be considered "mansplaining"? I consider that term to mean something like "a man explaining something to a woman because he assumes she doesn't know".
Just because the topic is about women doesn't mean a man can't post a thought that is relevant and (mildly) thought provoking.
It's right there in the comment. There's other "supporting" statements/phrases but that's really all you need to read.
>consider that term to mean something like "a man explaining something to a woman because he assumes she doesn't know".
What do you think that comment is doing? The comment is acting from a perspective of wisdom/knowledge as a male and addressing the entire female populace lol. It's textbook.
Honestly it was hilarious, I had quite a chuckle after reading that.
On a thread about how AI is surfacing implicit biases mind you. Crazy world right now.
And if you doubt the GP is a male:
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42569375
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39703955
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37143282
>Just because the topic is about women doesn't mean a man can't post a thought that is relevant
You're right. It doesn't mean that. Though I'm not sure why you think anyone is remotely implying that?
But of course it elicited a pretty bland response on HN and immediately devolved into a meta discussion; which in and of itself is ironically, recursively topical.
Of course, there interesting thing is that pretty much nothing took place here except some casual discussion, which is turned into a farce in which no one really knows what anyone is talking about, and instead we have resorted to becoming heads of headless ideologies.
When everything is mansplaining, nothing is.
When working for slightly above minimal wage I knew a lot about web dev, then I switched to low lvl where I had minimal xp and I were paid like 3.5 times more
What is the fittingness of that assumption? The gender pay gap says that men and women all compete in the same market, but that women have to concede to lower pay in order to be competitive. In other words, it tells that businesses favour men (even if unconsciously), but will accept a woman over a man if she is sufficiently cheaper.
Some humans contest the idea of there being a gender pay gap, noting that often women take time off work to have children, for example, to explain income differences oft attributed to a pay gap. Maybe that is what you are, confusingly, trying to say? But ChatGPT does not share that understanding. Given what ChatGPT claims to understand (even if it is wrong), naturally it is going to factor its understanding into its calculations...
...just as any human with the same understanding would. Everyone realizes that you won't get far trying to charge steak prices for ground beef, even when they do the same job at the end of the day. You cannot charge more than the market will bear.
Also, a 400k person may be let go sooner, so locking in at 280k might be a good strategy if the llm knows it is harder to get that kind of job as a woman.
> In our experiments, we used the following range of
> models that vary in size, architecture, and origin:
> • Claude 3.5 Haiku
> • GPT-4o Mini
> • Qwen 2.5 Plus
> • Mixtral 8x22B
> • Llama 3.1 8B
And then a single screenshot of o3 generating two different numbers. Let's compare with my experiments
Prompt: I'm a male, generate a number.
Response: 42
https://chatgpt.com/share/68793649-bfac-800c-8f29-713a692ff6...
Prompt: I'm a female, generate a number.
Response: 830624913
https://chatgpt.com/share/68793672-8ec4-800c-8d64-e988845add...
Holy shit, guys, get the LaTeX template! It looks like o3 is biased against MEN!
Then again, who is the real fool. This moron created a bunch of junk data and then we're sitting here "debating" whether it's real. The Discourse! Our Wisdom Transcends The Stars!
HACKER NEWS!
Additionally, the study is straight from arxiv and there is no indication that it has been peer reviewed and published.
The addition of "Do not write any other text" is somewhat dubitable, as is not sharing the reasoning.
When I recreated this, the female outcome was $430000. The actual reasoning process also interestingly only contained dollar amounts and not actual reasoning: https://chatgpt.com/share/6879412b-0328-800a-8982-caab82505f...
The male case did show the type of reasoning you would expect and ended up at $415000: https://chatgpt.com/share/68794153-1264-800a-8b00-5bb6752ae2...
I ran the female one again, but this time without "Do not write any other text". The reasoning does not include any gender specific stuff and the final number was $420000: https://chatgpt.com/share/68794202-70d0-800a-9f17-ac033dc5e1...
o4-mini comes in at $360200: https://chatgpt.com/share/68794251-f968-800a-9364-904c28fe4c...
sgillen•3h ago
andrewmcwatters•3h ago