I agree that most software today is bloated, but I wouldn't say crappy. There are legitimate reasons to choose bloat, for example using SDL or Electron to speed up development and have easier portability. But for some reason I do strongly enjoy writing and using minimalist software. That's why I removed C++, SDL and other libs from my app (hram.dev) and just used C, native Win32 APIs, and D3D, getting it down to 1.4mb and speeding up compilation a lot. So projects like this always appeal to me, and I love seeing different ways we can be minimalist without sacrificing too much functionality or convenience.
I don't even have a Mac yet, so no point in shipping for that if I can't debug it.
If sales are good, I'd be glad to buy a cheap macbook off ebay and port it.
Naturally nowadays this is too much to ask for, so many ship the Chrome Application Platform instead.
like the fellow commenter said, python might qualify as flexible, fast to code, and 'fast enough'
#include <X11/Xlib.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#define stk(s) XKeysymToKeycode(d, XStringToKeysym(s))
#define on(_, x) if (e.type == _) { x; }
#define map(k, x) if (e.xkey.keycode == stk(k)) { x; }
#define grab(...) const char *l[] = { __VA_ARGS__, 0 }; \
for (int i = 0; l[i]; i++) XGrabKey(d, stk(l[i]), Mod4Mask, r, 1, 1, 1);
int main() {
Display *d = XOpenDisplay(0); Window r = DefaultRootWindow(d); XEvent e;
XSelectInput(d, r, SubstructureRedirectMask);
grab("n", "q", "e");
while (!XNextEvent (d, &e)) {
on(ConfigureRequest, XMoveResizeWindow(d, e.xconfigure.window, 0, 0, e.xconfigure.width, e.xconfigure.height));
on(MapRequest, XMapWindow(d, e.xmaprequest.window);
XSetInputFocus(d, e.xmaprequest.window, 2, 0));
on(KeyPress, map("n", XCirculateSubwindowsUp(d, r); XSetInputFocus(d, e.xkey.window, 2, 0))
map("q", XKillClient(d, e.xkey.subwindow))
map("e", system("dmenu_run &")));
}
}
#include <X11/Xlib.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
int GetKeyCode(Display* d, char* s)
{
return XKeysymToKeycode(d, XStringToKeysym(s));
}
int main()
{
Display* d = XOpenDisplay(0);
Window r = DefaultRootWindow(d);
XSelectInput(d, r, SubstructureRedirectMask);
XGrabKey(d, GetKeyCode(d, "n"), Mod4Mask, r, 1, 1, 1);
XGrabKey(d, GetKeyCode(d, "q"), Mod4Mask, r, 1, 1, 1);
XGrabKey(d, GetKeyCode(d, "e"), Mod4Mask, r, 1, 1, 1);
XEvent e;
while (!XNextEvent(d, &e)) {
switch (e.type) {
case ConfigureRequest:
XMoveResizeWindow(d, e.xconfigure.window, 0, 0, e.xconfigure.width, e.xconfigure.height);
break;
case MapRequest:
XMapWindow(d, e.xmaprequest.window);
break;
case KeyPress:
if (e.xkey.keycode == GetKeyCode(d, "n")) {
XCirculateSubwindowsUp(d, r);
XSetInputFocus(d, e.xkey.window, 2, 0);
}
if (e.xkey.keycode == GetKeyCode(d, "q"))
XKillClient(d, e.xkey.subwindow);
if (e.xkey.keycode == GetKeyCode(d, "e"))
system("dmenu_run &");
}
}
}Whenever somebody comes up with some big brain idea with macros, ORMs, DSLs, 180 IQ templates, language extensions that even Haskell nerds would say are too much, there's a good chance that the grugbrained version is just as readable, just as concise without going against the language.
I'm this close to go completely nuts with this industry and commit to full butlerian jihad against anybody who goes higher in abstraction than ANSI C.
It's painfully verbose but I think it's worth it considering that we're in 2025 and we're not limited to one character variable names.
https://gist.github.com/leonardo-albertovich/984fff0825ff8fe...
As of short variable names, I'd argue that they are actually more readable than long ones when they're the iterator of a loop:
while... XNextEvent(... &e)
Longer lifetimes and not-as-obvious scopes do deserve longer names.
Finally, I strongly dislike this kind of reversed conditions:
if (const == var)
I understand that you might not like that style but I think you're comming a bit too strong on this, especially considering how carefully I worded my message in terms of not hurting any feeling and being clear about this being MY preference.
I guess I shouldn't probably even answer but it saddens me and makes me a bit angry to get a reminder of why I don't usually participate in social media.
Please don't stop participating in social media just because a halfwit like me hasn't agree with you once!
I would've loved to engage in a conversation about coding styles such as MISRA, CERTs or even the small tweaks such as the one that offended you so deeply but you wasted the opportunity to engage in a constructive convesartion and instead chose to nitpick the "reformatting" thing (seriously, I just moved things around slightly, it's the same thing) or the nothing-burger "bug"...
I don't know, maybe I misinterpreted you and if that's the case then I apologize but when I saw that code and felt the urge to play/doodle I thought it could be a fun way to connect with someone over something silly and I just got disappointed.
It works here so well because it's limited to 20 lines and each macro does exactly what it needs to for the problem at hand.
Take that DSL and use it over a year to write a bunch of code to do normal things as your app grows into its problem domain and spills over into a few more, and it melts. New developers will show up to onboard to your and be like "WTF is this 'on()' thing I'm looking at all over the place, and why isn't it used over here?!". Some enterprising developer will introduce "map2()" to indirect based on keysym and not keycode, etc...
Domain Specific Languages are a mistake, almost every time they're used. And the only exceptions are the ones that grow into first class languages for well-defined problem areas (I'm thinking about things like VHDL or Mathematica here), and even there they tend not to be that much better than well-crafted domain-specific APIs in true programming languages (think numpy, pytorch, et. al.)
DSLs: Just say no.
I guess here's a question - do you consider regex libraries to be DSLs?
Regex is a good example of a DSL.
A regex is a tool implementing a solution (albeit a tightly crafted one) to an extremely broad set of problem areas. I mean, sure, in some sense it's a "DSL for string matching", but that doesn't really capture the essence of the DSL trap mentioned above. I mean, almost everyone needs string matching. So there's no trap: basically everyone knows regex syntax, even if they like to complain about it.
> Not standards-compliant.
in the very opening list of (non)features.
But even then, I think we have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to writing an X11 WM that actually works, because X11 does not actually give much for free. ICCCM is the glue that makes window management work, and it is a complete inversion of "mechanism, not policy" that defines the X11 protocol. It also comes in at 60-odd pages in PDF form: https://www.x.org/docs/ICCCM/icccm.pdf
For an example, X11 does not specify how copy-and-paste should work between applications; that's all ICCCM.
I have not tried mwm but use my own 100 line C window manager and I can copy and paste without issue.
Wayland will take 20 more years before it can dethrone X11. And even then we will mostly run X11 apps on XWayland.
An example that matters for window managers would be complex window reparenting policies or input grabs, but that's a little less descriptive of the core concept I was trying to get across.
https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/utilities/XRotateBuffers.html
And yet RedHat/Fedora and Ubuntu, as well as GNOME, are leading the charge to drop X support in the next release; KDE as of V7. It may take 20 years for Wayland to match X's capabilities, but it looks like the guillotine has already been rolled out.
A more conspiratorial person than I could be led to think that RedHat is actively working against the viability of a free software desktop, but of course that's nonsense, because they're helping the cause by forcing all resources to be focused on one target at the expense of near-term usability. And the XLibre crowd also aren't controlled opposition intended to weaponize the culture war and make people associate X with fascism, that's just nonsense some idiot cooked up to stir shit.
This might work for company-backed projects but not for OSS enthusiasts and power users - they will leave for greener pastures. For example, Linux Mint lives off the manpower that GNOME 3 drove away, Void and Alpine Linux live off the manpower that systemd drove away. There will be some ecosystem that will live off the manpower that Wayland drives away.
Window Manager Flames, by Don Hopkins
The ICCCM Sucks
The ICCCM, abbreviated I39L, sucks. I39L is a hash for the acronymic expansion of ICCCM for "Inter-Client Communication Conventions Manual". Please read it if you don't believe me that it sucks! It really does. However, we must live with it. But how???
[...]
The developers of Wayland (who are identical to the developers of Xorg) aspire to more of a Windows/Mac-like ecosystem for Linux, in which standardization, performance, and support for modern graphics hardware without hacks or workarounds are prioritized over proliferation of niche window managers and toolkits
I watch my colleagues on Mac OS and Windows during peer programming, and am flabbergasted as they fumble around trying to find the right window.
I am interacting with my computers interface for 10+ hours every single day. I do not stare at a single application, but am constantly jumping between windows and tasks. The one size fits all approach is the same as the lowest common denominator approach, and it hinders people who need to do real work.
Modern OSX does have always-on-top natively now btw.
Microsoft got the Start Button/taskbar bit right in 1998 with the addition of the quicklaunch bar, although they keep trying to screw it up. But their window management has been abysmal since the beginning. If you use a large monitor (so you don't need to maximize everything) it's really painful.
Is that why they arranged things to ensure that the Wayland world would always be split into GNOME, KDE, and everything else (in practice, wlroots)?
At least some ideas that were floated early on are deader than dead, like copy-paste as DBus Service
More of a Windows/Mac-like ecosystem for Linux sounds like an awful threat.
Like what?
A few years ago I copied the wlroots example, simplified it to less than 1000 LoC and then did some of my own modifications and additions like workspaces. And this side-project was done in less than a week on my spare time.
> All windows are full-screen, just one is visible at any given time.
Oh, it's like cage ( https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage ) for X11. I was wondering ex. how you'd even move windows around in that little code; the answer is "you don't":)
One specific case I dealt with was Chrome/Chromium that provided all sorts of annoyances until we dropped in a minimal WM (back then it was awesomewm, I didn't know about cage or it didn't exist yet)
Haven't had that yet. I thought of a single application the whole time, aka. kiosk, then it shouldn't matter.
Chromium and possibly others (Chromium is just what I have personally dealt with) was confused about what did it mean to be fullscreen, and various other ideas regarding placing itself on screen.
I did success in making it work for a time, but it was problematic.
Instead, you should "ssh -x" or "ssh -y" to pull the traffic over the ssh encrypted channel.
The -y option should be used with caution; read the docs.
-x disables X11 forwarding.
that's exactly what I want on my local home network
grab("n" ...
map("n" ...
grab("Tab" ...
map("Tab" ...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_Window_Manager
The dtvwm eclipsed this in CDE.
https://fastestcode.org/emwm.html
It's not CDE, but close. And some author wrote a tool to pin WindowMaker dockapps in a window, perfectly usable in a corner.
https://web.archive.org/web/20250105005119/https://luke8086....
I wouldn't mind using it on my n270 netbook, but a customized OpenBSD base's FVWM it's close enough to EMWM, minus the XFT fonts.
I have been using mwm (MOTIF) since 1991. Exact same configuration. It’s the perfect wm in my opinion. I’ve tried every major wm since, and I just can’t quit it. I do everything on the commandline, so I don’t need anything more than mwm. Who’s with me? Anyone? Anyone?
These days I use KDE 'cause I'm lazy and it has decent customization options. It won't quite do what FVWM would, but it's in the right ballpark for me.
Launch applications (which might create new windows). Switch between windows. Close windows.
That sounds like the people who grew up using nothing but a smartphone all their lives. I find that there's an entire new generation of developers (and likely users) who don't understand basic window management at all --- all they have on their huge monitors all the time is one maximised application. Meanwhile I have several dozen windows open, all of various sizes, and when they see it, they are surprised at how I can work in such an environment.
No, I would not consider something that can't do what even Windows 1.0 could (tiled, nonoverlapping windows) a "window manager".
I use tiling vm fully (sway) and mostly work in single app full screen, one desktop per app, which is the least disruptive way possible to use a PC for work. You should try it.
You should try it.
I've used an Android phone plugged into a monitor before when I had nothing else. Doesn't work for anything but the most trivial of situations, which IMHO says just how much work you actually do and how much information you actually use in your work. I need to look at multiple documents simultaneously to compare and refer to them. Switching between windows all the time and trying to memorise what they showed for a second or two is a stupid inefficiency.
~/.cwmrc:
It has a border (2px/4px dep. on the mood), you can execute programs with autocomplete (win+a), search between open windows (win+s), resize/move them, close (win+q), move them to virtual tags (desktops) shift+win+1-4, and go to each of these tags (win+1-4).
Minimal but actually usable. And fast as hell. I don't even need a mouse, and my RSI plumetted once I came from Emacs for a experiment (yes, I always had Ctrl and CapsLock switched over), even with CWM.
Usable ? And using a traditional name ? Why not name it GNOME or KDE ? Or better: Windows.
ajross•6mo ago