The endurance figures seem to suggest anywhere between 6.6k and 11k cycles, which is both a wide range and unusually high for TLC flash - this is the normally expected range for decent MLC and 5 years of retention, so I suspect they're massaging the retention downwards to get those numbers.
On the other hand, an enterprise drive like Kioxia CM7 will offer either 1 or 3 drive writes per day (for regular and write-intensive drive models, respectively), across the 5 year warranty. That's ~1800 cycles or just shy of 5500 cycles.
By retention I'm assuming you're referring to the amount of time it takes for data loss to occur on SSDs in cold unpowered storage.
https://www.macronix.com/Lists/ApplicationNote/Attachments/1... (See graph on page 3.)
Then look up the retention specs for enterprise drives and compare to consumer ones, and the conclusion is obvious.
What this seems to suggest is that as a drive gets more "worn out", its data retention gets worse.
But I don't see how that can be taken to imply that enterprise drives have worse data retention than consumer drives. Nothing that I've seen suggests this.
This is what informal tests (i.e. via scrubbing/resilvering the drive after leaving it powered off for a long time) have found. Retention/data remanence is remarkably good for a drive that has been written over just once, and quite bad (i.e. you start seeing bit errors) for one that's almost worn out. This is actually very good news for the EEPROM-like use case where rewrites are quite rare.
(Note that "almost worn out" in this case can mean going far beyond the formal total-data-written rating of the drive. We're talking the range where the hardware itself is about to croak.)
Look up the specs. Commonly quoted as 3 months for enterprise ratings but the whole picture is in these tables:
https://www.legitreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ssd-...
Page 22 of this "says the quiet part out loud": https://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/AnilVasudeva_Are_SS... ("Lower Data Retention allows for higher endurance")
It is my understanding that JEDEC standard tests the data retention of the "worst case" scenario where a drive is fully worn out, i.e the drive has reached its maximum rated P/E cycles.
If I'm understanding correctly, that page you linked is saying that enterprise drives have firmware that essentially allows more P/E cycles, which then means that at the end of those cycles, the drive will be more "worn out" and thus will have a worse data retention.
But in a real world usage scenario where we subject a consumer SSD and an enterprise SSD to the same number of P/E cycles, would they have different data retention? I thought the JEDEC data was only for end-of-life scenarios.
Probably not, assuming they're using the same underlying media and same strength of ECC and that the amount of host data written was appropriately adjusted to account for the different capacities and overprovisioning ratios to ensure the actual P/E cycles seen by the NAND were the same.
As you write more data, the consumer drive would be out of warranty first, while the enterprise drive would still be under warranty but not spec'd to retain data for as long as the worn-out consumer drive. So for either drive, the manufacturer isn't guaranteeing 1 year retention past the rated endurance of the consumer drive.
That differs between enterprise and consumer - and the reason why the former is rated higher is because they've reduced the retention spec (to almost 1/4th).
But in a real world usage scenario where we subject a consumer SSD and an enterprise SSD to the same number of P/E cycles, would they have different data retention?
No, and that's the whole point of this: the same flash, with different definitions of "worn out", is quite misleading as they're just looking at different points on the same curve. It's all obfuscated marketing.
Incidentally, this is also why those widely-publicised tests that claim SSD endurance is not a problem by continuously writing until absolute failure and seeing many times the rated endurance (e.g. https://linustechtips.com/topic/327024-the-ssd-endurance-exp... ) are extremely misleading (albeit enlightening on how "enterprise" ratings are being calculated): they are showing how many cycles the flash will take before it's too leaky to store data long enough for the next verification pass, which may be less than an hour away. At that point it's almost behaving more like DRAM than nonvolatile memory.
I had always thought that enterprise SSDs used higher quality flash than consumer SSDs because of the higher endurance guarantees - that was why I bought them. Now I feel like a big reason to buy enterprise SSD has been removed.
I am flabbergasted, to be honest. And I feel a bit cheated that I am paying much more for the same quality flash.
So would it be fair to say that the only reason to pay for the enterprise SSD premium is the power loss protection and more reliable firmware?
Enterprise SSDs get you power loss protection and firmware QA aimed at server workloads and operating systems, and performance tuning prioritizing consistent sustained performance, and larger form factors with enabling higher capacity and higher power.
Consumer SSDs get you higher peak performance (eg. SLC caching) and orders of magnitude better idle power savings and QA against Windows and its NVMe driver, in form factors suitable for laptops and not requiring direct airflow over the SSD.
A very long time ago when the SSD market was still quite immature, there was a time period where "consumer" SSDs were little more than cut-down enterprise SSDs with inferior NAND and fewer features. But that changed well before NVMe showed up.
In addition to your comment (related), when 3D-NAND cells are read, interference by the traces (charge-trap disturbs) requires the neighbour cells to be refreshed with writes, if the controller wants to conserve data integrity. This did not happen with 2D-NAND in the past.
Reading data from one cell in 3D-NAND involves writing cells; reading data in 3D-NAND consumes disk endurance.
(Not to mention, temperature/number of layers/endurance)
Too bad planned obsolescence got in the way, or we would've ended up today with bigger SLC drives that are fast and simple and just as reliable.
tl;dr: worn flash shows severe degradation, but more worrying is that there are even signs of retention failure with TLC flash that has been programmed only once.
It's important to make people aware of that problem, but they can solve it in other ways.
I'd pay an extra $20 to upgrade a 0.25TB flash drive to SLC and get unlimited retention. For a drive in my computer, I don't need it and it would cost far more.
Edit: I could even get an extra hard drive just to act as a backup, and TLC+HDD would still be half the price of SLC.
What makes NVMe endurance ratings even better (though not for warranty purposes) is when your workload has sequential writes you can expect much higher effective endurance as most DWPD metrics are calculated for random 4k write, which is just about the worst case for flash with multi-megabyte erase blocks. It's my understanding that it's also in large part why there is some push for Zoned (hm-smr like) NVMe, where you can declare much higher DWPD.
* [1] https://documents.westerndigital.com/content/dam/doc-library...
ggm•6mo ago
Prices for HDD do drop when the TB available rises but there seems to be a "floor" price.
For SSD, there definitely appears to be a floor price.
I am pretty convinced this is not cost btw. This is classic cost/price disjoint stuff.
The price is tracking people's willingness to pay.
wmf•6mo ago
dopa42365•6mo ago
ggm•6mo ago
esseph•6mo ago
wtallis•6mo ago
ggm•6mo ago
We're not even tracking the chipcost for the storage. There's no linear function between them in terms of numbers, or die space.
The price is just "the price"
DevelopingElk•6mo ago
Flash storage is a commodity, we are paying close to the amortized cost of manufactured and sales.
ggm•6mo ago
"A few dollars" forsooth. My 2TB SSD cost $150 AUD and was (I believe) immensely profitable to everyone down the supply chain. The same spend gets you 16GB of packaged DDR ram and I think we can both see there is no linear relationship between the DDR chip cost, in GB and the 100x denser storage needed for SLC flash. This is not about vlsi density or number of chips. I'm not paying $15,000 more for my SSD.
"The prices are the prices"
fh973•6mo ago
AtlasBarfed•6mo ago
HarHarVeryFunny•6mo ago
wtallis•6mo ago
But aside from that, the cost of the NAND is the variable portion of the drive's cost, not part of the fixed floor of cost necessary for a drive of any capacity.
HarHarVeryFunny•6mo ago
How are the layers made different, without individual masking and etch?
wtallis•6mo ago
Dylan16807•6mo ago
Baseline name brand SSDs got down to about $75 for 2TB, and I'm not going to be impressed by anything until I see similar numbers again.
porphyra•6mo ago
adastra22•6mo ago
Dylan16807•6mo ago
And the technologies for fast connections to 2.5" drives keep failing to get a foothold in consumer products.
crote•6mo ago
Not surprising, considering the vast majority of consumers don't need more storage than you can easily fit in an M.2 form factor. Why mess around with expensive enterprise U.2 drives when it gives you zero benefit and gains you the hassle of dealing with extra wires and finding space for an ugly bulky rectangle?
Once you get to storage sizes where 2.5" becomes a need, you are well beyond the consumer price range. Very few people are willing to spend more on a single SSD than on the rest of their gaming computer combined.
mort96•6mo ago
Tadpole9181•6mo ago
mort96•6mo ago
I said that the set of people who need large SSDs is big enough such that its complement does not necessarily constitute the "vast majority".
Obviously what you mean by "vast majority" is somewhat subjective, and there is absolutely room to disagree with my statement. But argue against the right thing.
wtallis•6mo ago
taraindara•6mo ago
mort96•6mo ago
inetknght•6mo ago
There are plenty of non-Apple but good manufacturers with flexibility. Hell, I don't like Dell for their price points, but all of the laptops I've seen from them have upgradeable RAM and storage. If you want even more customization there are things like Framework.
mort96•6mo ago
> There are plenty of non-Apple but good manufacturers with flexibility.
I disagree. The laptop market is tragic.
radicality•6mo ago
And versus the normal M2 drives, the larger server grade are more annoying. For example, I got recently a 15.36TB Kioxia Cd6-R in U.3 format, for $1.3k, which is not bad for ssd prices. After getting the right adapters and fitting it inside a minisforum ms-01. It’s working fine, but it immediately reached its “critical” temperature (while doing nothing) so I had to attach a big fan and cool it. All the larger SSDs which are meant for server rooms will expect lots of cooling.
https://www.serversupply.com/SSD/PCI-E4.0/15.36TB/KIOXIA/KCD...
adastra22•6mo ago
LtdJorge•6mo ago
b112•6mo ago
The upthread may be able to hug that, but I like a quiet night in, not an unreliable wildcat.
cm2187•6mo ago
adastra22•6mo ago
y1n0•6mo ago
cm2187•6mo ago
consp•6mo ago
tucnak•6mo ago
Culonavirus•6mo ago
bravesoul2•6mo ago
zozbot234•6mo ago
daymanstep•6mo ago
GauntletWizard•6mo ago
lostlogin•6mo ago
Adding a drive takes a week. Replacing a drive a slightly quicker, but rebuild times are no joke.
Uvix•6mo ago
Alas, prices have not come down like I expected. And sure, there's only so many I can play at a time, but I also don't want to have to wait through a reinstall each time I change it up.
mjevans•6mo ago
It's not that people don't want larger drives, it really is that this is what the market is willing to bear and there is NOT sufficient competition to keep prices low.
lostlogin•6mo ago
Then why can I buy 22TB spinner by disks so easily?
I’d love to go solid state, but the cost should be phenomenal.
Judging by comments here, the server options also require a lot of cooling, and keeping the noise down is the point for me (along with keeping heat + power down, and speed).
userbinator•6mo ago
justinclift•6mo ago
ie: https://www.ebay.com/itm/186355513308
There are heaps on Ebay, but you'll be paying $$ for the larger sized drives.
mananaysiempre•6mo ago
justinclift•6mo ago
Many _serious_ reports of problems there, across many models and firmware revisions. It's an ongoing problem, and WD is ignoring it entirely.
jeffbee•6mo ago
justinclift•6mo ago
wtallis•6mo ago
mananaysiempre•6mo ago
mschuster91•6mo ago
Kioxia has them for servers [1]. You'll pay for that privilege though, 12.8 TB will set you back a healthy 1.600 € [2] and 30 TB 4.100 € [2].
[1] https://europe.kioxia.com/de-de/business/ssd/enterprise-ssd....
[2] https://www.primeline-solutions.com/de/kioxia-12-8-tb-cd8-v-...
[3] https://www.primeline-solutions.com/de/kioxia-30-72-tb-cm7-r...
abdullahkhalids•6mo ago
As there are many consumer level producers (who all buy from a smaller set of actual producers), it may seem like the market is close to perfect competition (which would justify price=cost).
But actually there are many low quality producers that frequently burn those stupid enough to buy from them. And a few high quality producers who generally sell what they advertise. So if you are trying to buy a high quality SSD, you are buying from an oligopoly that have built their brands over the years. So they can charge significantly higher than cost due to this reason.
And I imagine that others can't drop their prices much lower than this price because then people get suspicious and don't buy it at all.
ggm•6mo ago
Not close, but closeER and at least some evidence of tracking. That's what I'd expect if they were ubiquitous.
Some goods track commodity prices closely. Shrinkflation happens when you can't easily alter the unit price, chocolate bars are a good example. Not that we pay anything like as little as the producers get: there's enough competition that putting valhrona to one side, chocolate prices reflect commodity prices. Same with fuel. Same with ROHC compliant resistors. SMD components. PCBs. Batteries, led light bulbs. DDR memory.
Not SSD. There is no reason it must, this isn't the laws of physics. I just observe it doesn't. If there was more visible competition in supply of inputs, they MIGHT. But it looks like at best a duopoly or tri-opoly of inputs, and prices reflect demand a lot more. Supply isn't even close to demand, there's no surplus.
Those other things are somewhat peripheral. Not saying they don't have a role, but I don't think it's fundamental. I bought 6 "patriot" P210 and they get average to poor reviews for speed and reliability.
lazide•6mo ago
mananaysiempre•6mo ago
kijin•6mo ago
Professionals like us know of course that the SSD is an easily upgradable component. But we also tend to know how to set up a NAS with 4x 18TB HDDs in a zfs pool that can saturate the bandwidth of any reasonable home network when transferring large files. So the market for professionals and enthusiasts don't always translate into a market for large SSDs.
dontlaugh•6mo ago
rbanffy•6mo ago
There might be if we get to vert large models that rely more on storage than compute, but that's a lot of "ifs" in there. Maybe when people start capturing their birthdays in 16K HDR at 120 fps.
asnyder•6mo ago
Most recently, FTC started to raise awareness and crack down on some abuse: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/07/....
Will take a long time to de-program and by that time nothing will be replaceable to matter due to industries march towards preventing repair altogether.
mschuster91•6mo ago
Gamers certainly are a market. Borderlands 3 for example, a 2019 game, clocks in at 75GB on Steam, GTA 5 at 105 GB, MSFS 150 GB. And that's all OLD games. CoD Black Ops wants 175 GB, GTA 6 is rumored to want anything from 100 to 300 GB. You don't want that on spinning rust.
Detrytus•6mo ago
Dylan16807•6mo ago
I was hoping SSDs would get price competitive with hard drives but the progress sure has been bad lately...
(It's possible to even set up a system that lets you play a game while it's being moved over to SSD, but sadly there aren't any easy ways to do that right now.)
mystifyingpoi•6mo ago
This is 100% true. I have a family member that literally has a decade of family photos stored in WhatsApp conversations. 10 gigs app storage used on some old iPhone, no backup.
ksec•6mo ago
SSD price may have fluctuating for the last few years but their cost model are now similar to HDD. And so is DRAM.
Mainly cost to produce GB of DRAM / NAND / HDD are roughly the same for many years. You may get better performance or lower energy usage. But cost hast changed. And all fluctuations in market are supple and demand dynamics, which is why many saw 4TB for $150 in 2023 and thought things will drop soon. But that has not been the case.
We need breakthroughs to further reduce the cost per GB. Although one could argue we have half the cost already if we accounted for inflation for the past 20 years.
AtlasBarfed•6mo ago
Not that hyperconsolidation in HDDs isn't vulnerable to the same things, but the management playbook of these guys is to fix and inflate as much as possible.
Jerry2•6mo ago
I'm not sure if there are any sites tracking this. Anyway, I need to buy 30TB of storage this year so I can upgrade my NAS and make it last few years. Thanks for any replies from anyone who has an opinion!
wmf•6mo ago
SSD: $50-100/TB
nixgeek•6mo ago
I managed to find 64x Seagate Exos 20TB for $13/TB new about 2 years ago, on NewEgg of all places, but I’ve never seen that deal repeat. :(
All the new 30TB+ HDDs using HAMR technology from Seagate and WD still feel like expensive unobtainium.
synack•6mo ago
Jerry2•6mo ago
toast0•6mo ago
For SSD, there definitely appears to be a floor price.
The floor price for new hard drives is somewhere around $50-$80. When a drive at a certain capacity is only sellable for $50, most of the options disappear. Looking at newegg, you can get a 1TB drive for $60, 2TB for $65, and 4TB for $75 ... The price floor is around there. But if you want the best $/TB, you've got to get larger drives.
For SSDs, the floor is a lot lower. You can get a 128gb ssd for $22, 256Gb for $25, 512GB for $33, 1TB for $50, and then after that $/TB stays pretty consistent, there's not a lot of reduction in cost due to density like with hard drives.
torginus•6mo ago
A ton of affordable SSDs can do this, and after that (well, I'd pay for 2TB but not more), any upgrade is not noticeable for the end user.
sleepyguy•6mo ago
fennecfoxy•6mo ago
Every now & then there's an article on shrinkflation, and it's incredibly noticeable to all of us that what we're buying in the supermarkets we're getting less for more. Do we do anything about it? Nah.
A lot of it is down to endless growth, investors hopping on the last few carriages of the train and demanding that more carriages be added after them, and everyone else already on-board obviously support that as well.
There are very few companies that are run as "at capacity" ie fully satisfying their market size, competing with competitors, organically staying the same size due to external factors.
Now it's all internal factors (which I include investors in) trying to balloon every company as large as they can.