Apple's Favoritism to Fastmail

https://xcancel.com/mxroute/status/1952890684660203830

68•paul-tharun•6mo ago

Comments

tyleo•6mo ago

I feel like this is low on details. I despise social media comments as HN submissions.

What actually happened here?

paul-tharun•6mo ago

MXRoute has been trying from ages to get push notifications on the IOS mail app but were getting ignored.

FastMail got access to it and it is not clear how, without any public announcement or documentation.

It is as if Apple just picked a favorite and went with it.

Weethet•6mo ago

FastMail is using JMAP, a protocol designed to support push notifications. MXRoute is stuck with SMTP/IMAP which don't support those. There might be a different reason, but I think this is probably the core issue here

admdly•6mo ago

I think saying they are stuck with standard email protocols is a bit of a stretch. JMAP is not widely implemented outside of Fastmail and certainly isn’t used by Apple Mail, which actually uses a proprietary IMAP extension (XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE).

jarland•6mo ago

The stock iOS Mail app does not support JMAP and therefore it has no relation to Push notifications for the stock iOS Mail app.

slau•6mo ago

I kind of wrote about this: https://sebastian.lauwe.rs/blog/ios-migadu-notifications/

It’s more focused on how to get notifications to work with an email server that does not support XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE, but I also delve into how Apple abandoned the only reference implementation of XAPPLEPUSHSERVICE.

mpercival531•6mo ago

iOS Mail app does not support IMAP IDLE like any ordinary email clients.

It only supports a proprietary IMAP extension that uses Apple Push Notification Services (APNS) as a sideband channel for IMAP servers to signal the iOS Mail app.

Last I researched this (like… years ago), most IMAP-based email providers that are listed by the iOS Settings have implemented the extension, except for Gmail and Exchange. Fastmail then got on the train since 2015.

Not sure what is with the tweet targeting Fastmail specifically though.

jeffbee•6mo ago

Ironically, Google does use APNS to support its own Gmail app on iOS, and for many other reasons. Just not for IMAP.

admdly•6mo ago

Fastmail have been singled out as they appear to have been given special treatment in the form of an APNS topic ID. Other hosts have been using a reverse engineered endpoint to generate certificates, which has recently been closed.

There’s some discussion on the Apple developer forums - https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671. The solution for the OP there seems to have been they also will get special treatment, but there remains no route for others to use to get the same.

fluidcruft•6mo ago

Yeah I looked at the link and first reaction is there are no receipts and failure to produce receipts registers with me as adequately explained as a "skill issue" (via some sort of corollary to Hanlon's razor). My outrage meter is unmoved.

admdly•6mo ago

There isn’t a skill issue at play here - it’s that Apple have closed the previously unofficial route others have been using (including MXRoute), which has brought the issue to a head. There’s some discussion on the Apple developer forums - https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/778671.

fluidcruft•6mo ago

That linked topic says Apple is working with the developer to handle it. I don't see any evidence of favoritism.

Fastmail clearly reached out to Apple eons ago, which is evidence of skill on fastmail's part and not favortism on Apple's part. Admittedly, fastmail very likely has lots of contacts in Apple (Jeremy Howard isn't nobody), but that's also a skill issue.

admdly•6mo ago

Of the many email hosts out there, only a handful receiving special treatment with no route for others to even request the same is special treatment. In the case of Fastmail, they’ve had this access since 2015.

It’s also very interesting that Apple reached out to the user in the developer forum thread after they raised it as an EU DMA issue.

fluidcruft•6mo ago

Why can't MXroute do exactly the same thing? Did they open a ticket?

jarland•6mo ago

No, I went straight to trying to shame them on Twitter. The part where I said "We’ve tried to talk. @Apple just stops responding once they realize what we’re asking" was just a joke, you got me.

jarland•6mo ago

Having friends inside of Apple that provide you with something no one else can obtain is a fairly decent definition of favoritism.

You cannot send Push notifications to the stock iOS Mail app no matter how hard you try. They can. There are functions inside of iOS that are made better because of this (auto copied 2FA codes, for example).

fluidcruft•6mo ago

There's no evidence "nobody else can obtain" it. The parent's link to the Apple developer forum shows somebody else obtaining it. There's no evidence that MXroute couldn't do the same.

jarland•6mo ago

There is no defined process for obtaining it. If you'd like to tear down that statement into little pieces and dissect it, I recommend getting a new hobby because it's not that interesting.

MXroute doesn't go around threatening US companies with EU law from Texas. As for your requirement for evidence, this situation does not require your approval unless you work for Apple and can offer some help in the matter. The tweet you are critiquing is me (owner of MXroute) attempting to gain Apple's attention to get what Fastmail and that EU user have obtained. I'll continue doing what I'm doing, if that's alright with you. I'm well aware of the situation and what others have done. What I need at this point is eyes on the prize. I'll get what I'm after, but a public statement that I currently cannot get what I'm after is entirely appropriate for the avenue I've chosen to do so.

It's a mistake to assume that I'm merely flailing my arms chaotically and generically playing the role of Karen.

fluidcruft•6mo ago

Why would you expect a defined process? It's proprietary software on a closed platform.

I'll just take your word for it that there's no ways for Texans to get the same treatment as these other companies. Oh well. Take it up with your legislature, I guess.

nativeit•6mo ago

This is a pretty unfortunate context for this, but I just wanted to say that I've been using your service for years, and me and my handful of customers are 100% satisfied.

It sucks that Apple won't just embrace interop with host mail services in some formal way, I'm not sure what the benefit of this specific flavor of gatekeeping achieves. It also sucks that HN contrarians are reflexively dumping on this, instead of supporting entrepreneurs like one might hope in such a community. Anyway, keep up the great work, I'm with you long term.

nerdjon•6mo ago

I am a bit confused here as well, is there a difference between "Push" and the notifications on iOS?

I just checked my emails, I use Amazon Workmail and even that has push support. The only one for me that doesn't is my lesser used gmail.

To my knowledge I get alerts quickly with that email, I have never had an issue of not.

jervant•6mo ago

https://github.com/st3fan/dovecot-xaps-daemon

https://github.com/st3fan/dovecot-xaps-plugin

1over137•6mo ago

No updates in 6 year. Do you know if it still works?

jervant•6mo ago

Yes, though you still need to renew the certificate through OS X Server.

admdly•6mo ago

Which, unfortunately, is now impossible as they’ve removed the endpoint that was used for this.

st3fan•6mo ago

Author here .. I haven't run it personally in a long time since I moved to hosted email. It was always an unofficial hack :-/

yohannparis•6mo ago

Or maybe... FastMail created JMAP, ergo they are the one with the best implementation. Now Apple is working on moving iCloud to JMAP, and are working with FastMail as a JMAP production level service within mail.app.

1over137•6mo ago

Your alternate theory doesn't pass Occam's razor given Apple's general behaviour. Do you have any evidence?

yohannparis•6mo ago

None, that's why I started with "Maybe...". I'm spitballing here and try to exchange ideas with other people interested in the topic to debate it.

I love every answer my comment received!

admdly•6mo ago

Apple uses a proprietary IMAP extension that, until recently, any developer could use by generating a APNS certificate using a reverse engineered endpoint from macOS Server. They’ve since closed this.

Fastmail have had sanctioned access from Apple (via their own APNS topic ID) - https://www.fastmail.com/blog/push-email-now-available-in-io...

mpercival531•6mo ago

How iOS Mail gets push inbox updates working with third-party IMAP servers is in the public since 2015/2016 if you look hard enough. That has nothing to do with JMAP the protocol inherently.

whazor•6mo ago

There were some changes last week to the JMAP Email Delivery Push Notifications[1], so that could be related.

[1] https://github.com/jmapio/jmap/commit/1335683f8b542c71bc41a4...

jarland•6mo ago

The stock Mail app for iOS does not support JMAP.

solarkraft•6mo ago

I know you said „maybe“, but this is how rumors begin.

I can not find any reference to Apple having any involvement with or interest in JMAP (as much as I’d wish so).

jbc1•6mo ago

Does Fastmail really get push? I have a vague recollection that the reason I’m using their app over native ios Mail is because ios Mail was notifying me about emails with a noticeable delay.

mpercival531•6mo ago

It is “notify to pull”.

IMAP servers through APNS ping the iOS Mail about updates in certain pre-registered inboxes. Then iOS Mail re-fetches those inboxes.

The change signal is pushed; the data (inboxes/emails) aren’t.

MrDarcy•6mo ago

I’ve been hearing a lot of good things about Fastmail. Time to try them out.

frizlab•6mo ago

I am a happy subscriber since a long time ago (10 years, I think?). They are amazing. The job is done and there is nothing else in the way.

This and Kagi are my top subscriptions recommendations.

nunez•6mo ago

this was the reason why i moved to fastmail, and it works great

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Apple's Favoritism to Fastmail

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