So evidently a two state solution is off the table, and once all the Palestinians are driven away, a one state solution will become acceptable to Israel.
Is there some other way this could play out?
SilverElfin•5mo ago
Weren’t all two state proposals in the past rejected by one Palestinian leader or the other?
FridayoLeary•5mo ago
Anyway the idea basically died on October 7.
EdwardDiego•5mo ago
It's been dead since Netanyahu became Prime Minister.
Netanyahu became PM in 1996. In his role as PM he signed follow up agreements to Oslo accords and handed over to PA control more parts west bank.
As cabinet minister (in 2004?) he voted 4 times in favor of disengagement from gaza and removal of all jews from there (both life and dead).
Later, when he became PM again, in speech that he gave he affirmed that he supports two state solution as long as palestinian state demilitarized (something that demand now all western countries that recognize it).
jfengel•5mo ago
What does Netanyahu's version of a two-state solution look like?
I had imagined it as something like creating a country ("Palestine") in the West Bank, along the 1967 borders. But if so, what happens to the settlements that are (as TFA points out) still ongoing?
Is there supposed to be a different border? Exclaves of Israel? Or are those settlers supposed to become part of Palestine?
tguvot•5mo ago
same as was negotiated in all rounds, including clinton parameters. big settlement blocks go to israel, in land swaps (iirc like 3% or 5% of west bank). remote settlements are evacuated. PA demilitarized (as uk, france, canada, australia, etc say should be). school should stop teaching hate (unrwa teaching that one day they will come and will liberate entire israel since 50s. take a look at this the atlantic article from 1961 https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132... )
bibi in fact froze settlement construction once for 6 months (such freeze as precondition to negotiation never happened before. it was mess that obama created. construction inside limits of existing settlements) in order to get palestinians to negotiations table. they refused to negotiate and came to table only in last week, made no progress and left when construction was unfrozen.
Israel never funded Hamas, you might be thinking of them facilitating Qatari aid funds.
nielsbot•5mo ago
Same difference
tguvot•5mo ago
at some point of time there was serious fallout between PA west bank and Hamas in Gaza (you need to remember that Hamas was elected as majority party by elections in 2006 and later there was coup attempt by PLO sponsored by usa, that succeeded in west bank and failed in gaza).
As result of this fallout PA stopped transferring money to Gaza to pay salaries and for maintenance of all infrastructure and services.
Mainstream media across the world had headlines that "hundreds of thousands of gazans will starve to death any moment now because they can't afford to buy food because israel blocks money for salaries" and "unmaintained infrastructure will result in mass illness etc.. etc.. etcc.. because israel blocks money for fixing things".
eventually Israel folded and allowed those transfers.
and now this is known as "israel propping up hamas"
nujabe•5mo ago
You folks being disingenuous as usual. Israel did not facilitate the payments to Hamas because of some humanitarian concern for Gazans(lol), they did it specifically for the purpose of undermining the PA so Netanyahu could point to Hamas and say “see we have no partner for peace” which is exactly what he’s done. [1]
He is directly quoted by many sources saying “ anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas” which wholly contradicts your claims. [2]
It’s amazing to see how flat Israeli hasbara falls these days, it doesn’t hit like it used to, most people are now well informed to be gaslighted with lies.
i won't deny that it was comfortable for bibi politically at later point of time. there was also hope that it will make hamas to behave more responsibly as they run "country" and to moderate.
but the fact remains that money transfers started because there was international pressure on Israel to do so in order to prevent "humanitarian catastrophe".
feel free to search contemporary news. it important to know history beyond recent flashy headlines.
nujabe•5mo ago
Let’s circle back, your claim is that Gaza was on the verge of humanitarian crisis, not because of Israel’s 25+ year siege, blockade and regular bombing campaigns, but because the PA stopped paying out salaries to Hamas?
This is absurd and you know it.
tguvot•5mo ago
shifting goal posts?
As i wrote, it was international media and un that claimed this. And there was international pressure on Israel
nujabe•5mo ago
Since when did Netanyahu give a flying F about what international media thinks? Your argument that Netanyahu was swayed by international pressure doesn’t hold water.
nielsbot•5mo ago
I imagine it will play out similarly to the genocide of the Native Americans: Ethnically cleansed or genocided. Any stragglers will live on reservations or the equivalent. Palestinians living under Israeli control will be subject to apartheid a la the Jim Crow South in the US.
I still have a slim hope that this outcome will be averted, but the odds of that lessen by the day.
burnt-resistor•5mo ago
Long-term Palestinian refugee camps are/were essentially urban reservations. Some have existed for decades and look kind of like cities. They are/were really, really small areas with very high density. Sort of like a concentration camp too.
burnt-resistor•5mo ago
If you think about it, a "two state solution" results in the a continuation of de facto apartheid. Israel controls identity cards, vehicle registration, and the civil registry of births and deaths. There's basically no way for Palestinians to have a complete and independent country at this point, and this is a shame and a crime that was intended.
The only viable, long-term, stable solution is abandonment of Zionism for a one state solution with a secular democracy that doesn't selectively enfranchise or disenfranchise people based on religious, ethnic, or racial identity. The problem right now is that millions of people are part of a cult and cult-adjacent who harbor beliefs of ethno-nationalist supremacy. History proves time and again that ethno-nationalist sentiment leads to war, murder, and genocide.
nielsbot•5mo ago
> Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
Israel approves patently illegal West Bank settlement project
amanaplanacanal•5mo ago
Is there some other way this could play out?
SilverElfin•5mo ago
FridayoLeary•5mo ago
EdwardDiego•5mo ago
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-748435
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/knesset-overwhe...
nielsbot•5mo ago
tguvot•5mo ago
As cabinet minister (in 2004?) he voted 4 times in favor of disengagement from gaza and removal of all jews from there (both life and dead).
Later, when he became PM again, in speech that he gave he affirmed that he supports two state solution as long as palestinian state demilitarized (something that demand now all western countries that recognize it).
jfengel•5mo ago
I had imagined it as something like creating a country ("Palestine") in the West Bank, along the 1967 borders. But if so, what happens to the settlements that are (as TFA points out) still ongoing?
Is there supposed to be a different border? Exclaves of Israel? Or are those settlers supposed to become part of Palestine?
tguvot•5mo ago
bibi in fact froze settlement construction once for 6 months (such freeze as precondition to negotiation never happened before. it was mess that obama created. construction inside limits of existing settlements) in order to get palestinians to negotiations table. they refused to negotiate and came to table only in last week, made no progress and left when construction was unfrozen.
this is lovely article that shows how obama killed all negotiations between israel and palestinians https://www.meforum.org/israeli-settlements-american-pressur...
EdwardDiego•5mo ago
Which is why Israel funded Hamas to weaken the PLO.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
dlubarov•5mo ago
nielsbot•5mo ago
tguvot•5mo ago
As result of this fallout PA stopped transferring money to Gaza to pay salaries and for maintenance of all infrastructure and services.
Mainstream media across the world had headlines that "hundreds of thousands of gazans will starve to death any moment now because they can't afford to buy food because israel blocks money for salaries" and "unmaintained infrastructure will result in mass illness etc.. etc.. etcc.. because israel blocks money for fixing things".
eventually Israel folded and allowed those transfers.
and now this is known as "israel propping up hamas"
nujabe•5mo ago
He is directly quoted by many sources saying “ anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas” which wholly contradicts your claims. [2]
It’s amazing to see how flat Israeli hasbara falls these days, it doesn’t hit like it used to, most people are now well informed to be gaslighted with lies.
[1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
[2] https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-border-troops-women-h...
tguvot•5mo ago
but the fact remains that money transfers started because there was international pressure on Israel to do so in order to prevent "humanitarian catastrophe".
feel free to search contemporary news. it important to know history beyond recent flashy headlines.
nujabe•5mo ago
This is absurd and you know it.
tguvot•5mo ago
As i wrote, it was international media and un that claimed this. And there was international pressure on Israel
nujabe•5mo ago
nielsbot•5mo ago
I still have a slim hope that this outcome will be averted, but the odds of that lessen by the day.
burnt-resistor•5mo ago
burnt-resistor•5mo ago
The only viable, long-term, stable solution is abandonment of Zionism for a one state solution with a secular democracy that doesn't selectively enfranchise or disenfranchise people based on religious, ethnic, or racial identity. The problem right now is that millions of people are part of a cult and cult-adjacent who harbor beliefs of ethno-nationalist supremacy. History proves time and again that ethno-nationalist sentiment leads to war, murder, and genocide.