In contrast, pure model components tend to evolve slowly, which justifies the investment of a comprehensive test suite which verifies things like data constraints, business logic, persistence. If automated testing were seen as a priority, this would be a no-brainer for any serious app. However, testing tends to be underappreciated in app development. This goes some way to explaining why frameworks carelessly fold in M, V, C to the same component.
Do people really do this? That's mind-numbing.
And then, 10, 20 years after the fact, people will start attacking popular implementations that differ from the original using some "new canonic interpretation" that is either extremely recent, or an interpretation that is old but was lost in time.
This is especially common around Smalltalk and OOP for some reason. Smalltalk's OOP is nothing like what existed either before or after, but since Alan Kay invented the term, Smalltalk is weaponised against C++/Java-style OOP. Not that C++/Java OOP is the bees knees, but at least their definition is teachable and copyable.
Design patterns suffer because in most explanations the context is completely missing. Patterns are totally useless outside very specific contexts. "Why the hell do I need a factory when I can use new"? Well, the whole point is that in some frameworks you don't want to use new Whatever, you dummy. If only this was more than a two-sentence blurb in the DDD book (and the original patterns book totally glosses over this, for almost all patterns).
And monads became the comical case, because they are totally okay in Haskell, but once it gets "explained" and migrated to other languages they become this convoluted mostly useless abstraction at best, footgun at worst (thinking of the Ruby one here).
Rubbish. In terms of OO language constructs, Smalltalk is almost entirely derived from Simula. Let’s not revise history.
That said as someone fairly unfamiliar with Smalltalk I'd like an example of what other parts of Smalltalk play well with it's OOP Sauce...
The "big leap" in Smalltalk was the idea that everything is an object and computation is message-passing, not just classes and instances. That’s not from Simula. Simula was more like an extension of Algol with OO bolted on. Smalltalk was a whole new conceptual model, which is not as simple to explain as Simula/C++/Java-style OOP.
There are a set of three short laws that define what a monad is. I’m not sure that really fits in with MVC, OOP, or design patterns.
You could say, the key to getting MVC correct is understanding the Expression Problem, and designing its solution into your programming language in the first place, so you don't need MVC, but if you want to do it, it becomes actually neat and clean and modular.
It's hard to define how a pattern can be useful, because they're patterns, not recipes or snippets. They're supposed to fit in the reader's solution, not the author's examples. You're supposed to have the problem before reaching out for a solution and patterns are not solutions, they're models of solution, each with their own tradeoffs, costs and advantages.
My best guess from this article, given then "associated by observer" link from View to Controller, is that the View is supposed to pass events to the Controller, which will interpret them into changes to the Model. But what's the format of these events that's both meaningfully separate from the View, e.g. could be emitted from different views to maybe different controllers, but doesn't just force the View to do most of the work we want the Controller to do?
e.x. in a 'proper' ASP.NET MVC 4 project I 'inherited', the View took input data in and with a tiny bit of JS magic/razor fuckery around the query page etc, but overall the controllers would return the right hints for the Razor/JS 'view' to move the application flow along or otherwise do a proper reload.
Splitting the logic from the state and presentation make the code very testable. You can either have the state as input and you test your presentation, or have the presentation as input (interaction and lifecycle events) and test your state (or its reflection in the presentation).
Also this decoupling makes everything more flexible. You can switch your presentation layer or alter the mechanism for state storage and retrieval (cache, sync) without touching your logic.
That just leaves formatting the requested changes into a language the server model accepts.
Maybe model is more 'database', controller is API interface (server side + client request requirements), and view is end user render?
Basically, the thinking was to let the programmer design the view and then implement the code-behind. I'll spare you from my rants about this, but it was popular.
Nowadays, with vibe coding, there is no need to use obtuse design patterns for the sake of RAD. Sensible architectures can easily by used by LLMs without sacrificing engineer or designer agility.
So like in React, you'd have your Redux store as the Model, React components (with useState etc) as the View, and then your Controller is the reducer which is called from UI code and updates the Model.
Maybe that's incorrect definitionally, but it makes sense to me.
Another major aspect of the original "true" MVC is multiple simultaneous views on to the same model, e.g., a CAD program with two completely live views on the same object, instantly reflecting changes made in one view in the other. In this case MVC is less "good idea" than "table stakes".
I agree that MVC has fuzzed out into a useless term, but if the original is to be recovered and turned into something useful, the key is not to focus on the solution so much as the problem. Are you writing something like a CAD program with rich simultaneous editing? Then you probably have MVC whether you like it or realize it or not. The farther you get from that, the less you probably have it... and most supposed uses of it I see are pretty far from that.
This is a really insightful way to frame it.
That's sensible. But it's generally useful to split your core state from your presentation, and then you'll find strands of logic that belongs to neither, generally glue code, but some can be useful enough to warrant a module of their own. Also your core state can be alien from the view itself (think a game data (invisible walls, sound objects) and the actual rendering).
Maybe this architecture is not MVC, but MVC can be a first stab for a quick and dirty separation. Then once a cleaner separation can be done by isolating specific modules (in layers, graph, whatever)
Instead a model is one or more collaborating objects.
I used to say things like this. M and V were always pretty unambiguous, but “controller” was kind of like “Christianity”, everyone talks like it’s a unifying thing, but then ends up having their very own thoughts about what exactly it is, and they’re wildly divergent.
One of the early ParcPlace engineers lamented that while MVC was cool, you always needed this thing at the top, where it all “came together” and the rules/distinctions got squishy. He called it the GluePuppy object. Every Ux kit I’ve played with over the years regardless of the currently in vogue lets-use-the-call-tree-to-mirror-the-view-tree, yesteryears MVVM, MVC, MVP, etc, always ends up with GluePuppy entities in them.
While on the subject, it would be remiss to not hat tip James Depseys MVC song at WWDC
https://youtu.be/kYJmTUPrVuI?feature=shared
“Mad props to the Smalltalk Crew” at 4:18, even though he’d just sung about a controller layer in cocoa that was what the dependency/events layers did in various smalltalks.
I haven't written Objective-C in a decade or so, but isn't this a pretty big mischaracterization of the language? NSInteger is a typedef to a C type IIRC, while there's NSNumber for the cases you want an object and/or are deserializing -- and which has observable propeties?
Like, why do we even need any of that stuff? I blogged about it [1] and spoke about it [2] and the post even got some HN love [3].
The opening parable concludes with this...
Multitudes of sworn "Rails developer"s, "Laravel developer"s, "Django
developer"s, "Next.js developer"s and suchlike throng the universe…
Why?
...
...
Once upon a time, there was one.
WebObjects.
Now they are numberless.
Clojuring the web application stack: Meditation One
[1] blogged: https://www.evalapply.org/posts/clojure-web-app-from-scratch...
[2] talked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHVEId-utY&list=PLG4-zNACPC...
deck: https://www.evalapply.org/posts/clojure-web-app-from-scratch...
source: https://github.com/adityaathalye/clojure-multiproject-exampl...
[3] discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44041255
165 points by adityaathalye 3 months ago | 39 comments
pixelworm•2h ago
cypherpunk666•2h ago
THE OG