Ask HN: How can AI be used in brain machine interfaces?
2•phoenixhaber•5h ago
So sometime around the mid 1990s there was this thing that came out about these Buddhist monks where they would put electrocardiograph suckers all over their head and so you'd have these bald monks with these with these wires coming out of their head and then they would do things like they move EKG needles. And so forget Elon musk's neurolink or whatever that is because if you if you put in something that's hardwired into someone's head and then there's a software update what happens right like if if the hardware becomes deprecated what do you do right like it's just it's a bad idea. But supposing that you put electrocardiograph suckers on someone's head or you made a helmet and then you connected this to AI could you use it to make make it so that somebody would wear virtual reality glasses and then could affect the virtual reality via a brain interface it was like a helmet or suckers on their head or something. And yes I understand that there may be some sort of Scientology connection to e-readers but I'm not particularly interested in that per se it's more or less a coincidence and so this doesn't have any kind of religious connotation I'm more interested in if we can make something along the lines of like the matrix or virtual reality or something like Johnny mnemonic or something like this. Again yes I understand there's a science fiction element to this. But if this is possible then you can do things like make visual representations not only of data but how someone reacts to data. So suppose that you had a compendium of all of the knowledge from erowid which is a drug database based on trip reports and you use that to create visual representations of data structures based on how someone interacts with the virtual environment. On that note there is in fact a paper on I'm using AI MRI imaging and trip reports from the website and seeing if there's a correlation between how someone's biology affects the way that they speak and think. In any case I see all of these uses for AI that are incredibly software focused but I don't see as much in terms of hardware such as robotics in order to get new data or interfaces in order to interact with data that we have already. So rather than have for example the next iPhone being iPhone 20 or 30 or something who is going to make the newest brain machine interface that uses AI to interact with a virtual environment?
Comments
phoenixhaber•4h ago
I should add a couple things to this I think. So first of all it's not a Buddhist conception either because everyone has a brain and to the extent that you're able to you know if someone makes a brain interface then that should be something that anyone with a neural cortex can use. The other thing is is that if you're going to have the interface such that it uses emotional states to create representations of structures clearly some people will be better at this than others. And so you're going to have like you could suppose the world in which there are some people who become expert programmers in an emotional field where other people aren't and those people who are good at this sort of thing if you make this the new Monopoly based on what everyone's into like the internet is today those people will end up being at the top of the hierarchy. So you might get guys who are like Olympic level athletes that if you hook up themselves up to this machine they would be able to make data structures that were incredibly fascinating that somebody who was a c++ programmer today would be like I don't have the neurochemistry in order to do this like I can't I don't have the same capability. And then you get to the point where it's like okay well maybe you could copy the neurochemistry of the guy who's really good at doing this and then his art isn't cool anymore and it goes on to the next thing. So if this becomes a thing then there's going to be competition involved and the winners and the losers aren't known in advance but the winners and losers aren't necessarily the people who are going to be the winners and losers that are in programming as it is today anyway. So creating like another system for which you pick it winners and losers in advance is sort of arbitrary and doesn't matter I'm more or less interested in the fact that this might be a cool thing to do and you'd also have to make the interface such that even if somebody is smarter than someone else they can at least still navigate the interface or like the virtual environment nearly by thinking about it even if they couldn't create the more advanced data structures that would require someone to be like someone who has spent their entire life being good at thinking about things like some psychonat or some silly thing like this. The other thing is is that anything that you create that can be used for good can also be used for some terrible purpose. The things that are awful the things that are like well and truly the worst things in the world are the things for which there's only a terrible purpose which is surprisingly few of them but there are some. So if you wanted to hook up something like this to a prisoner in a concentration camp or something then you could probably screw with a guy but you could do that with just about anything anyway so it's not it's sort of it's sort of arbitrary in any kind of dystopian thing where you make a mind reading machine and that's going to destroy someone's life it's like well you can do that with with like relatively much simpler means and you won't create something useful. So I to that extent like I'm not that I'm not that interested or concerned about that although it's worth mentioning that this might be a concern. The point here is is that I think this is an interesting idea and I keep looking at the hardware that is available from the big producers and we've come out with a newer iteration of a phone but I think that the newer iteration of smart glasses maybe maybe using I don't know like a smart glasses with a brain interface or it could be smart glasses where you have advanced zoom right where even if somebody has problems with their cornea you can use glasses that are mixed with binoculars to zoom in and on areas of that they can see right. Which seems heuristically pie in the sky only because the hardware isn't there yet but if you look at what the idea of a phone is and the advancements in like smartphones is that it took the idea of information sharing and it made it even more sharing even more information in some way. And so if you take them like the most advanced use case of a of glasses it would be like what can you see even more of in some way. Anyway I'm getting off topic this is becoming a bit of a TED talk which is silly I just wanted to add these comments to what I wrote before because otherwise I would think about them all day as like these are the questions or comments that wasn't addressed in my original post and then it would just bother me and then I'd forget about it and then it would bother me that I forgot about it so. So that's sort of the idea and then every possible thought thread that I thought of having to do with this idea I might ask Google or Microsoft for being or something what possible like in what way could this be made at work like what technology is going to be required to make it. And being might come along come up with like well the hardware isn't there yet and we have some ways of looking at some some forms of EKG but not all of them and there's a use case where you could use EKG to do something but it's not particularly useful for this reason and so on. There's a I do remember there was a toy where if you concentrated hard enough it was like a it was like a circle that you'd put around your head that would that would measure the use of your frontal cortex and if you concentrated hard enough there would be a ball that was like in a like in a on a platform in the in the ball would so that the platform would use a magnet to raise or lower the bar the ball which didn't have anything to do with the the measurement device it was just a gimmick because look you can levitate a ball with your mind kind of thing. So I mean there's some there's been some work on doing some some like like some some gimmicky like sharper image type stuff where it's it's interesting but a bit out there. And that was many years ago I just it's worth noting but I don't know if there's I think that if you used AI you could come up with enough correlations between the various electric signals if they came out of the skull in the right way. But on the other hand I don't know if the measurement devices or like the output from a measurement device would have enough data for an artificial intelligence to know what you were talking about. Anyway those are all my ideas.
phoenixhaber•4h ago
Oh one other comment hacker News is f*** because I'll get like two points if it's like the peace sign and I'll get a hundred million points if it's like arguing against like capitalism or saying that a corporate entity is a bad thing so I know that it's screwed up it's one of the few public-facing forums for which you can post for free and there's little to no moderation except the moderation is all Shadow moderation by idiots and bots. I'm just posting here mostly because it'll last long enough for me to have an online notepad for which someone might take a look at it and then I could possibly email it to someone who cares but yeah like I know like oh look we drugged and f*** with you in San Francisco and you posted something on hacker News here's two points like I get it it's sad and f*** up but I mean I like I understand I'm being f*** with is it's depressing as hell but what am I going to do you know San Francisco is screwed up people of people want money or drugs or they want to hurt each other and someone is going to someone like someone is going to make make me sick or gas me with drugs or something and then I'll find them wandering around the street with one boot on their foot like they're f*** Byron and I'm supposed to just ignore that that's happening or I'm supposed to freak out and be like what do I do and at some level it's like if you don't I think what it is is it's a bunch of people with money that are trying to find a way of organizing how everyone's going to get all the goodies from the technology that's coming I like seeing if they can f** with people by by like gassing them with drugs or making them sick and then you go to the hospitals and it's just a bunch of sick people but all the sick people happen to be the security guards and the doctors so I you know I just I get it I don't think that anarcho capitalism or anarcho communism or anarcho stupid I don't think any of that works I think you know it's a way to make everybody depressed and f*** up so when I see it or when it happens to me I go yeah this is probably a bottom probably being screwed with and there's no way to tell for sure but man is it depressing and if I knew how to fix this problem rather than like the artificial intelligence problem or the how do you make the coolest newest machine brain interface I would because it's such a the problem like brain machine interfaces are like are like candy and cake and s** it's like those are cool fun things to have but having a functioning society with doctors and like people who aren't hurting each other for fun is more important but I don't want to spend my life telling people not to be an idiot cuz it's just exhausting and you don't get anywhere I just wish people wouldn't f** with me all the time you know what I mean the other thing is is like if you make a brain machine interface right one of the problems with adding it's sort of like the concept of syntactic sugar silly enough is that it adds a layer of complexity on the society that may not fix underlying problems like why is Britain running out of freshwater so outside of the problems of like people screwing each other over in San Francisco which is a societal problem you also have problems where it's like structural resource problems that have to do with public infrastructure so what's the use of virtual reality of food prices triple but it's a much more interesting problem than working on supply chain management right it's incredibly weird that the people that are the the rock stars and you look up into society are the people who are basketball players and people who are like the guy who invents the iPhone and it's not to say those are bad it's just I don't know anytime I get to the point where like I'm defending the proletariat or something I'll have someone try and poison me in a hospital so it's one of these man I wish I could say what I wanted without having someone try and murder me I don't knowSan Francisco screwed up I'm just rambling but I'm more or less convinced that a bots read this and giving me a point and then like buried the comment somewhere because some guy walked around like Byron after I was poisoned because someone f*** up his foot and then he had to get a f*** cast on his foot and then he looks like a it's stupid it's like a mix of Byron and and nirstche I think I think you'll have all the guys wandering around playing with their legs like their magic seeing if they can screw anyone over who's irrationalist and if you pay attention or comment on it then you're not rationalist enough not to be screwed over because you don't believe in freedom of religion or something I don't know that is just bizarre I just I I have no idea what's going on here it's just it's just f*** nuts
phoenixhaber•4h ago
Oh by the way these are all my comments which I've just talked into my phone so just read it as if you were reading someone talking to you there's no punctuation in there's multiple repeated words and stuff like that but just imagine someone's just talking to you while you read it so it's like a I don't know it's consider it like a literary art form where it's like the direst entry except someone's just speaking at you rather than like going through and playing with their thumbs in order to put in periods and s**
JohnFen•1h ago
> just read it as if you were reading someone talking to you
That's not at all how people talk to me, though. I'm sorry, I found this wall of text to be impossible to digest.
phoenixhaber•4h ago
Oh and then the next one I should just mention is that it's like we're doing we don't need no education but all the forms of we don't need no education is like upside down so middle school is good and college is bad but elementary School is the best one because then it's then it's easy like that's good but if you're going to college that's your f*** if someone's going around with Harvard t-shirts you know you're in trouble so I just passed the Middle School shirt so it's like middle school is like the version I believe that Middle School is you see the stupid and you comment and how the stupid is being used to f** you over and everyone may or may not believe in you but at least you know what the rationalist s** is too and so it's like Buddhism I believe because it's like you are taking the middle path whereas elementary School might be Alice in wonderland and then high school would be I don't know again this is all stupid s** having to do with like having to do with like how we're going to screw people over with sick and brain disease and I believe what's what's weird and frustrating I think is that the pipeline for drugs is like drugs okay I read this report on hacker News which I found surprising is that computational power has more or less doubled every year since 19 whatever right whereas the the returns to healthcare have halved every year which I find incredibly weird but what's interesting about this is that we now have okay we now have a machine for which you can replicate in a virtual environment somebody is entire body virtually like they did the human genome project twice in the second time they more or less mapped out someone's body to like a centimeter so there's no reason why you couldn't take an incredibly complicated artificial intelligence and map out someone's entire body okay and do human trials within an artificial intelligence which sounds incredibly weird and like that might not be possible because of environmental factors and secrets and all sorts of s*people are weird about their bodies like if you if you try and do this someone is going to like see if they can't come up with an interesting drug or an interesting poison that's not going to be like the machine won't understand which is you know okay that's fair but let's suppose that you get close enough right then you should be able to start looking at like how do we make it so that drugs like drug research costs less without for example experimenting illegally on the poor and no don't pretend that s* doesn't happen because I've been poisoned so many times where it's like you're going to be poisoned and then given the antidote it's stupid so like when you make a virtual machine they can do this you can then take all of the drug research where you're just using like what are all the protein folding models what are all the like how many carbons like how many ways are there to make carbon chains really if we're looking at like biology they're simply not that many I mean there's a large amount but they're finite and so you can create a drug you can create all the side effects and then all the possible ways that it that it happens and then once that happens you can start making drugs like like here's a drug where if you take it and you take it with your coffee everyday it's like a pill then you'll live 10 years longer on average and you sell it to everybody for a dollar and so I think what's going to happen is that all of the money that was used in artificial intelligence is going to is going to go through like a it's going to go through a bust cycle and then you're going to have all these broken toys but those broken like well we can't do anything with this because we invested all this money in building artificial intelligence what do we do with it cuz it's not making us money and what's going to happen is everyone is going to start making drugs as cheaply as possible and then they're going to start doing things like oh well in order to support these machines we're going to make we've made power essentially free through a combination of like nuclear reactors and then just making as much solar panels as possible and then the next boom cycle is going to be we're going to use what was in the what like what was left over from the bus which is cheap power large amounts of hard drives and artificial intelligence to produce those things for which we under invested in which happens to be health Care and then you're like okay so what other things have we under invested in over the last 30 years were the pipeline has been like you make less money over time where are we now have the tools to make that cheaper transportation might be one right can you make can you just use can you just make it so that like all of transportation for goods is by solar powered robotic cars I don't know now I'm rambling again and I'm going to run out of battery in my phone but that's that's the next sort of idea that I had that's worth mentioning
phoenixhaber•4h ago