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Bertrand Russell to Oswald Mosley (1962)

https://lettersofnote.com/2016/02/02/every-ounce-of-my-energy/
90•giraffe_lady•1h ago

Comments

giraffe_lady•1h ago
Thanks mods for the title fix.

I can't find a copy of the letter this is in response to which would provide more context. I believe it was an invitation of some sort.

Bertrand Russel was a prominent logician and philosopher, more or less invented types to solve a problem he was having with set theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell

Sir Oswald Mosley founded the British Union of Fascists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

OtherShrezzing•1h ago
For general context, this was addressed to post-ww2 Mosley, in the 60s, who argued a unique form of holocaust denialism at the time. He didn’t take the position that the holocaust didn’t happen, he took the position that it was justified.
haijo2•1h ago
Mr Mosley also had a pretty well known son lol.
seanhunter•46m ago
For reference, this is alluding to Max Mosley who used to be prominent in formula one car racing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
thomassmith65•1h ago
Bertrand Russel also was - and hopefully still is - a public intellectual, like Einstein or Chomsky (for better or worse), whose opinions on many areas of life reached ordinary people. His values were ahead of his time.

This is a wonderful interview with him that gives a great sense of what he was all about:

• A Conversation with Bertrand Russell (1952) https://youtu.be/xL_sMXfzzyA

lostlogin•48m ago
Russell also lives a long time, with family who did too.

While young his grandfather told Bertrand about meeting Napoleon. Late in life Bertrand watched the moon landing on TV.

https://www.openculture.com/2022/05/philosopher-bertrand-rus...

colinbeveridge•40m ago
I understand that Professor Yaffle -- the woodpecker bookend in the classic kids' TV show Bagpuss -- was loosely based on Russell.
interestica•10m ago
They had a long history of correspondence. The preceding letter is archived and you can probably get a copy. (https://bracers.mcmaster.ca/79128)

> Jan 6/1962 Re nuclear disarmament and world government. BR is not inclined to agree or disagree with Mosley's views, but he does think that Mosley is "rather optimistic" in his expectations. BR provides criticism of his main two objections. (A polite letter.)

> Jan 11/1962 Mosley wants to lunch privately with BR about their differences.

These are basically all the letters exchanged with Mosley:

https://bracers.mcmaster.ca/bracers-basic-search?search_api_...

seanhunter•3m ago
> more or less invented types to solve a problem he was having with set theory.

For people who haven't encountered it yet, this problem is the famous "Russell's Paradox"[1], which can be stated as

Consider the set R, consisting of all sets S such that S is not an element of S.

Ie in set builder notation

R = {S : S ∉ S}

and then the paradox comes from the followup question. Is R an element of R? Because of course if it is in R, then it is an element of itself so it should not be. And if it's not in R, then it is not an element of itself, so it should be. This is a logical paradox along the same lines as the famous "The barber in this town shaves all men who do not shave themselves. Does he shave himself?"

In modern axiomatic set theory, Russell's paradox is avoided these days by the "axiom of regularity"[2] which prevents a set builder like "the set of all sets who are not members of themselves", so what I wrote above would not be accepted as a valid set builder for this reason by most people.

Russell proposed instead Type theory which got revived when computer science got going.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_paradox

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_regularity

hackncheese•1h ago
Wait Oswald Mosley is a real dude??? I know him from Peaky Blinders, one of those characters you love to hate

https://peaky-blinders.fandom.com/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

dboreham•1h ago
He's less well known because the British generally don't elect their charismatic fascists leader of the country. Instead he was jailed and his organization banned.
lostlogin•54m ago
> the British generally don't elect their charismatic fascists leader

Hold that thought. Current UK politics have taken a turn and the combination of major party incompetence and rising anger might change that.

JetSetWilly•40m ago
Fortunately in Britain we have moved far from the values of former labour MP and noted Europhile Sir Oswald Mosley. I would see reform as a fairly traditional conservative party, though I appreciate that there are many that are keen to shift the overton window so far that they can be described as somehow “far right”.
graemep•34m ago
I do not think many people are aware of his post-war politics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley#Post-war_politic...

There are quite a few things there (e.g. that he wanted laws against marrying someone of another race, that he saw himself as left wing, etc.) that I did not know, although id did know of his involvement in the Union Movement.

He was also a Conservative MP (later joining Labour)

graemep•12m ago
I think not.

The protests last Saturday got a boost from the murder of Charlie Kirk so the large turnout is misleading.

The only British political figure willing to accept Elon Musk's backing is Tommy Robinson, and he is not a major player, just someone good at getting into newspapers. Very different from the US or continental Europe - for example Germany where AfD (which took Musk's money) has seats in both the national and European parliaments.

graemep•36m ago
> Instead he was jailed and his organization banned.

He was interned during world war II as a security measure. He was released before the end of the war and never charged with anything.

nabla9•34m ago
Brits don't elect their PM in their first place. That might be the reason. The structure of British democracy kept fascists away, as well as anything new, not the British people.

Sir Oswald Mosley was member of parliament before starting the BUF. He was the youngest member of the House of Commons when he started as Conservative. He eventually switched to Labour.

harpiaharpyja•11m ago
> The structure of British democracy kept fascists away, not British people.

That sentence was particularly hard to parse. It read like you were saying that the structure of British democracy kept fascists away, but did not keep the British people away (???).

I did manage to figure it out eventually though. I think you meant to write:

It was the structure of British democracy that kept fascists away, not the British people.

bshimmin•4m ago
Not to worry, though: his grandson, Louis, is in charge of Palantir in the UK. Definitely nothing concerning about that!
1-more•1h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street
jfengel•4m ago
Very much a real dude. And extremely hateable -- and hateful. He was simply an awful pwerson.
1970-01-01•1h ago
Simultaneously polite, peaceful, respectful, diplomatic, and succinct in writing. LLMs have a long way to go.
SideburnsOfDoom•48m ago
IDK, I see this as in some ways verbose, not succinct at all. A completely succinct reply to Mr Mosley would be two words only, the second being "off".

This letter tries to "unpack" its point of view rather than reply succinctly. But you're right that LLMs do not do it that clearly.

mjd•1h ago
I always feel funny starting letters with “dear”, but next time that happens I'm going to remember that this one started with “Dear Sir Oswald,”.
esafak•15m ago
I thought that was how one simply started letters -- you could even say "Dear Sirs" -- but in the US at least it seems "dear" has come to reserved only for close recipients.
cubefox•1h ago
A tangent..

> Bertrand Russell, one of the great intellectuals of his generation, was known by most as the founder of analytic philosophy

That title is usually attributed to Gottlob Frege (in particular his 1884 book "Grundlagen der Arithmetik", and his 1892 paper "Über Sinn und Bedeutung") who directly influenced Bertrand Russell, Rudolph Carnap, and Ludwig Wittgenstein, who all later became large influences on analytic philosophy themselves. Frege is most known for the invention of modern predicate logic.

alkyon•58m ago
There is a transcription but reading the original letter, typewritten by Bertrand Russell, with all the typing corrections that probably stemmed from some kind of holy anger he must have felt responding to someone like Mosley, was incredibly more pleasurable.
lovelearning•27m ago
> It is always difficult to decide on how to respond to people whose ethos is so alien and, in fact, repellent to one’s own.

Perfectly describes how I feel when talking with rightwingers.

interestica•18m ago
If you’re really interested in his works and correspondence, McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario holds the Bertrand Russell archives.

Some stuff is online. Here’s a curated collection of some really interesting letters sent to him:

https://dearbertie.mcmaster.ca/letters

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