A few years ago when people were being sentenced to prison for memes, the government pressured social media to censor and ban people, members of the US government requested people be deplatformed, banks and credit card processors “banned” individuals for their political views, and people were fired, we heard a lot about the paradox of tolerance, the Free Speech xkcd comic “showing you the door”, the idea that “freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence”, “you don’t have a right to a platform”, the important of the government shutting down disinformation, etc. People felt they had to express support for the cause du jour or face consequences, to be silent was to agree with terrible people.
Now very many of the same people have rediscovered the value of free speech culturally and legally, because the shoe is on the other foot and the other “side” is using these same powers and arguments.
Game theory says once one side defects in this situation you’re irrational to continue not defecting. Neither side has any reason to believe the other about these principles because they have both engaged in these authoritarian tactics. I don’t know what the way out is. “Imagine the roles were reversed” doesn’t work when people see it as retribution for what you did to them. I don’t see it getting better.
I'd rather wish the previous governments had closed down Fox News, though.
PS: not an USA citizen.
Also possibly time for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to get an update.
Is this what you’re referring to? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/23/dou...
I agree that the left did not take free speech as seriously as it ought to have. However, today the president is as opposed to free speech as the most rabid leftist university protestor from a few years ago, and that is a lot different.
I also wasn’t claiming his memes were criticizing Clinton.
Like
> a few years ago when people were being sentenced to prison for memes
are you talking about the guy whose memes tricked thousands of people (of one political party) into thinking they could vote by texting a number?
But also consider the point that everyone has a reason why their exact situation is different than the other sides when the outcome is the same. They would say for example that Kimmel was simply deplatformed because he also spread misinformation.
There’s no way out until everyone agrees it is the outcome that matters rather than doubling down because their ideology is so correct that it is beyond contestation and the other side are enemies destroying democracy rather than rivals.
The "other side" isn't great either. Would be great to have a sane alternative, I guess.
Authoritarianism is not a “one side” problem in the US and until we collectively figure that out each side will continue increasing it, all in the name of stopping the other sides’ extremists.
"The 14 Characteristics of Fascism" https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
...and I recall people reading it and saying they don't see how Donald Trump ticks the boxes.
It's all very tedious to complain about when half the electorate supports it. It makes one feel like a nag and a broken record.
> Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist. Take away imperialism from fascism and you still have Franco and Salazar. Take away colonialism and you still have the Balkan fascism of the Ustashes. Add to the Italian fascism a radical anti-capitalism (which never much fascinated Mussolini) and you have Ezra Pound. Add a cult of Celtic mythology and the Grail mysticism (completely alien to official fascism) and you have one of the most respected fascist gurus, Julius Evola.
> But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.
[0] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci...
At the root, there’s either principled freedom or control.
Well, that resonated just a bit. Oh well, back to doomscrolling.
I have no idea where our current "line" is but it's not the same as it was last time and who knows what it will look like if we have some kind of civil war out of this.
edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpWvz0dR3wc
The other day I watched this interview with Dan Carlin from 4 years ago and near the beginning the interviewer says something like "I don't think any of us want to draw any comprarisons to current nations and Nazi Germany"
that caught me, because why not? Of course no one wants to actually create parallels, but do we see any? maybe we didn't see as many then, and it was more of a worry in 2021 about even thinking about the possibility of tipping MAGA into that territory. but then again after January 6th we should have seen that they basically don't have a line and are just pushing it gradually. They don't really know what to do when they get the new power either, but the people who could stop it may not even realize it because they haven't had to deal with this kind of thing before. like invading Greenland? taking it from Denmark? how do you even create a response to a suggestion like that? so nothing happens and they see what else they can do.
I'm not counter claiming the rest, but that fact seems off.
Source: Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
The article shows how he lulled them step by step and diverted them from knowing this was worse than before. Sound familiar USA?
That's an insanely stupid claim. Jews were systematically stigmatized and eventually sent to extermination camp. What we now call LGBT people and political opponents got the same treatment. Syndicalists too: one of the first thing Hitler did was make unions illegal. And even the "aryans" that supported him, saw their work hours get longer and longer and the pay smaller and smaller.
For the germans interviewed in the book, it seems to be true that many had read or heard about the camps or other atrocities, but (1) not the “final solution” which was not in the press and (2) there seems to be heavy desensitization from 1933-1955 when the book was written.
Aside from the tailor that had started the fire at the synagogue, the other 9 interviewees had not directly witnessed atrocities being committed, and instead focused on their personal hardships during the war.
Even though they may have been literate, the people in Mayer’s book were ignorant of the specific realities. Perhaps willfully ignorant, yes, but the nazi regime really did not give any opportunities otherwise.
—
not an expert, just reporting my notes from the book.
i highly recommend all americans read it, its not a long book. it feels eerily familiar, even though many circumstances are drastically different.
The vast majority of them do their jobs, pay their taxes, and consider themselves patriots and good people because they help their families and motherland, and are polite and well-meaning.
While their jobs help the military machine that murders thousands of innocent people every week, their taxes fund that machine, and their complacency keeps the system stable for decades, costing not only their enemies, but also themselves and their own kids their futures.
When starvation, war, and political terror come, they will consider themselves innocent victims of another unearned, unavoidable political tragedy - not understanding their own decades of inaction brought it on them.
And America isn't that far behind.
Not thinking objectively, living unconsciously, engrossed in short-term matters - is the worst sin that leads to all the other sins. It's how it happened in Belarus, Russia and it's how it's going to happen in US.
Such books will no longer be published if universities are not free.
And if freedom begins to disappear, even those who believe themselves safely conformist are not safe...
First they came for those who stood up again gender ideology but I did not speak out for I did not dare to question the narrative,
Then they came for those who questioned the narrative around the SARS-COV2 virus and it potential treatments but I did not speak up because I did not dare to question the narrative,
Then they came for those who refuted the oppressor/oppressed narrative but I did not speak up because I do not want to be labelled 'racist',
Then they came for those who refused to leave the area because people of their skin colour were not welcome in the area but I did not speak up because I did not want to be noticed by the violent mobs,
Then they came for me and nobody spoke up because they all just went with the narrative.
Universities have not been 'free' for quite a while, what is happening now is a reaction against the lack of freedom and the strong ideological bias seen on many campuses. It is action and reaction, not action out of nothing.
The solution to this is to get ideology out of academia but I would not know where to start other than by starting new academic institutions - brick and mortar, online or some sort of hybrid. Those new institutions also run the risk of ideological capture, especially since they will be started by those who oppose the current lopsided academic climate with its heavily 'progressive' political bias.
Let the first professor who has no political bias speak up.
Then they came for those who thought the earth was flat, but I did not speak out for I did not dare to question the round earth narrative.
Then they came for those who thought the internet was carried by little elves, but I did not speak out for I did not dare to question the fiber optic narrative.
Not all narratives are equal.
I read this book a few years ago and I can't stop thinking about this line of discourse (there's more of this subject in the book). I've felt this exceptional frustration and disgust towards the (in my opinion) wildly underreacting non-fascist millions in the States, more so than the fascists themselves, which seemed contradictory.
The closest I've come to communicating why is that one group is on script while the other isn't. For example, a deadly airborne disease is awful, but the truly scary thing to me would be witnessing doctors and immunologists just kind of shrugging their shoulders.
I grew up with this belief that for all their loud, obnoxious quirks and faults, Americans do not fuck around when it comes to their principles of liberty and freedom. I always admired that. I remember thinking it was a feature that they're so quick to protest and make a scene. I had, without any doubt in my heart and soul, anticipated total disaster. I was expecting to see protests and riots and fires and further uncelebrated but deemed necessary violence in response to the slow ablation of freedom and liberty.
It's quite possible that I'm wrong and that total disaster is premature. But never before have I felt this certain about an "everyone else is wrong" belief. It's scary and somewhat lonely. Reading this book made me feel much less lonely, and much more scared.
kleiba•1h ago
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42943973 (02/2025, 473 comments)
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25083315 (11/2020, 382 comments)
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31042304 (04/2022, 239 comments)
dctoedt•58m ago
JKCalhoun•13m ago
nataliste•6m ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25083315#25104589