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EU age verification app not planning desktop support

https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/issues/22
110•sschueller•2h ago

Comments

emigre•52m ago
This is outrageous and doesn't make sense
nicce•44m ago
Depends on whom you ask. Google introducing the developer verification and sideloading on iOS being even bigger hurdle, they want to stay in control on what you use and they want to make sure you don't have possibility to use anything they explicitly permit. Normal desktop is unfortunately too open for that. Discourage people to use desktops and make rely on controlled gardens even more.
throw834920•40m ago
It makes total sense. The whole point is to punish self-respecting people who use freedom preserving operating systems and treat them as second class citizens.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44704645

bilekas•46m ago
This is a great example of how this whole requirement hasn't been properly thought out.

> Desktop support is not currently within the project's scope.

What I would like to take from this is that, by their own definition, desktop apps are out of scope for Age Verification. So does that mean we will see a return of the 'desktop applications' instead of everything being a web service ?

One can dream perhaps. Until then adults who are willing to 'do what they're told' will be the ones who are inconvenienced by this constantly.

Edit: Also this will completely disable any new phone OS' being developed. Why would anyone bother when you can't verify your wallet to do anything online.

Luker88•40m ago
> oes that mean we will see a return of the 'desktop applications'...?

No. It's still required by law, which means that your desktop application will require some interaction with your smartphone.

cenamus•36m ago
Further forcing everybody to have their phone on person at all times
pessimizer•29m ago
I've been saying this for years: eventually not having your phone on you and powered up at all times will not be a crime, but it will be grounds for questioning and search.

One day, there will be a knock on your door.

"Good morning, this is the police. Is there something wrong with your phone? Is your phone broken? Can we provide you with a charge?"

"No, I must have turned it off accidentally."

"Can we assist you with an upgrade? The newer models don't have power buttons."

nehal3m•17m ago
And as a prerequisite enforcing dependency on titanic (and in my case foreign) tech companies that are free to unilaterally ban you from communicating with your government. This is a BAD idea.
jeroenhd•3m ago
Depending on the implementation, you can run the app on your computer. I don't see why the iOS app wouldn't work on macOS, and there are tons of tools to run Android apps on Windows and Linux.

If the actual implementations do copy the dependency on Play Integrity and other such APIs, that does become a problem (getting past that is a major annoyance on amd64 computers because there are so few real amd64 Android devices that can be spoofed).

However, the law regarding these apps specifically states that the use of this app must be optional. I'm not sure websites and services will implement other solutions, but in theory you should not need a phone unless you want the convenience and privacy factor of app verification. I expect alternatives (such as 1 cent payments with credit cards in your name) to stick around, at least until we get a better idea about how this thing will work out in practice.

Aaargh20318•34m ago
The wallet app can be started using a QR code. You can then finish the verification on your phone and continue on the desktop website/app/whatever.
hellojesus•2m ago
What if you don't have a phone? Or what if your phone runs a custom rom and can't pass google's attlestation?
izacus•4m ago
My EU country allows tapping the ID card on a NFC reader on PC for verification. No smartphone needed for desktop use.

Why wouldn't that be sufficient?

qiine•40m ago
This read more like "we thought pc was a dead relic of the past" sadly
amelius•23m ago
I think it's more that smartphones have built in security measures that prevent hacking. It already works for bank apps, so why not use it for government stuff too?

It sucks, yes, but that's probably how these people think.

dathinab•7m ago
but if age verification is used for what it claims it is such hacking protections are not only unnecessary but fundamentally harmful (i.e. if a child hacks their PC it's fine if they circumvent age verification, the main responsibility still lies with parents and as such tools like parent controls are much more relevant)

the main reason is that this is not a reference implementations or "this is the app everyone must use" case but a "to see what is technical possible/practical" "research/POV" project

this also makes the "EU age verification app" title quite misleading

mrtksn•19m ago
App not available doesn't mean age verification not required. You can be required to confirm your account from your mobile phone or scan some QR code on mobile that will take you to age verification session and once completed you can continue from the desktop.

I mean, otherwise would be like not being bound to speed limits if you don't have a speedometer.

baq•42m ago
This is hardware attestation in a nutshell: a double edged sword, and a sharp one at that.

The biggest issue is that the attestation hardware and the application client is the same device with the same manufacturer, who also happens to have a slight conflict of interest between monetizing customers and preserving any sort of privacy.

IMHO the pro-attestation forces are so overwhelming that we should all cherish the moment while we have anything open left.

qiine•38m ago
This could be a boon to all sorts of new kind of hardware though (wishful-thinking mode)
brookst•21m ago
How does private access token (PAT) compromise privacy in the name of monetization?
disruptiveink•8m ago
The insane question here is, why would the EU mandate hardware attestation controlled by two private American companies in order to access services?

That seems completely contrary to the spirit of EU laws and regulations, which tend to be about protecting the consumer, preventing monopolies, ensuring people can generally live their lives where all things that are mandatory are owned and ran by the state and foster a certain degree of EU independence, with a recent focus on "digital sovereignty".

This one is a five for one against all of those goals? Harms the customer (you could see this as the polar opposite of GDPR), strengthens entrenched monopolies, force citizens to be serfs of one of two private corporations in order to access information, and on top of that, like it wasn't enough, willingly capitulates to the US as the arbitrates of who is a valid person or not.

This is so against the spirit of the EU itself that it would almost be funny if people weren't serious.

ronsor•3m ago
> The insane question here is, why would the EU mandate hardware attestation controlled by two private American companies in order to access services?

Because the EU doesn't actually care about privacy, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to do this and ChatControl. They care about being the main ones to spy on you, and maybe using fines as additional "taxes" on rich foreign companies. That's it.

nickslaughter02•33m ago
Do you want desktop PC vendors locking down hardware to enforce integrity?
pjmlp•24m ago
Want do you think Windows 11, latest macOS, ChromeOS hardware requirements are all about?

CoPilot+ PCs even require the same security chip as XBox and Azure Sphere IoT board (Pluton), in addition to TPM 2.0.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/hardware-...

hhh•17m ago
Well, yeah. There’s no way to curb the modern cheating epidemic without increasing security measures. Riot Games via Valorant truly pushed the industry so far ahead by reducing their cheating percentages so low that the cost to cheat for more than a few weeks at a time is thousands of dollars a month.

It’s not the sole reason, but it’s a solid one.

elric•32m ago
Along with chat control, it really seems like the EU is pushing a dystopian digital agenda.
mono442•25m ago
I mean, the EU is something like a modern take on Soviet Union so it shouldn't be suprising.
Sharlin•22m ago
Suuure, if the USSR had been a deeply neoliberal market economy. Something tells me you don't know anything about either the EU or the USSR.
brookst•14m ago
While I agree EU is nothing like USSR, calling it a market economy is kind of questionable. It’s a bit of a hybrid, which companies allowed to market and sell on their own but with intense regulatory control over product design.

From USBC to ad supported business models, the EU has fairly tight control over how products are designed and monetized, in a way that I don’t think can be described as a pure market economy.

Note that I’m NOT saying their level of centralized control and government specification of product requirements is bad. It’s a legit trade off and there are arguments that some or all of it is enlightened. But it’s certainly not a place where you just build your product and ship it and let the market decide.

riffraff•6m ago
since when a market economy need to have no regulation?

Market economies are contrasted with planned economies, i.e. how prices are determined and production allocated, and the EU most decidedly is not that.

mono442•10m ago
Well, obviously there are differences, but some overreaching and, I believe, unrealistic policies, such as the EU's climate policies, are somewhat reminiscent of the Soviet Union's central planning.
miroljub•23m ago
It's time to rush to Russia, while we still can.

If they accept us, of course. Not everyone is Snowden.

k0tan32•19m ago
Did you forget the "\s" marker?

Russia is a one way step ahead here, with mandatory pre-installed apps, full-scale internet censorship (still catching up with China, though), mandatory DPI, etc.

kome•30m ago
so a smartphone is required by law? that's fucked up
afandian•16m ago
No! Only required if you want to participate in society.

And what gets me is that it's not just 'you need a phone', it's 'you need a Google or Apple account'.

vaylian•10m ago
And neither Google or Apple are EU-companies.
parasitid•11m ago
not A smartphone: an iphone OR an android verified device.

not your linux phone with waydroid or fairphone with lineageos

jonbiggums22•2m ago
Well, only smartphones made and controlled by American corporations that are subject to US laws.
jmclnx•25m ago
Lets pretend the EU would mandate Desktop Support, we all know it will be only applied to Windows and Apple. Maybe for Linux, BSD it will never be applied.

In anycase we all know ways of bypassing this age verification will be found, probably by the kids themselves. But all this will do is enable US big tech, killing the very EU based companies the EU has been crying about for years.

Meta, Twitter, Google and M/S could not have created a better law to protect them then this law.

amelius•25m ago
Something tells me the granny on the bus can verify her age by going to the local service desk.
seydor•21m ago
This whole thing is good news for external hard disk manufacturers
lucideer•16m ago
A lot of people outraged by this but ultimately this is good news - the more flagrant & public the technical incompetence of the people putting together these idiotic systems, the easier mass push back will be to foment.
bluecalm•16m ago
Is there anything in the proposal to stop people from VPN'ing to a free country and access their porn from there?
riffraff•12m ago
no, like there's nothing preventing you from getting porn via USENET.

This has always been a "best effort" initiative that is unlikely to stop "dedicated" users.

frizlab•11m ago
I think they want to make age verification mandatory for subscribing to VPN services too.
WithinReason•7m ago
Then you subscribe to the VPN with a VPN
alejoar•8m ago
You can’t fence in the wind
jampekka•6m ago
VPN will maybe work for porn but, as they say, "Age verification plays a crucial role across various scenarios, including access to online services, purchases of age-restricted products and claiming age-related benefits."
lousken•15m ago
what if i were to buy a linux phone? it's not even about desktop support, it's about supporting iOS or android and nothing else which is really bad
frizlab•12m ago
Most of what the EU does these days is (knowingly or not) freezing the current status quo regarding the tech world. It’s depressing.
alejoar•6m ago
And Europeans are either too passive, too ignorant or too focused on the wrong issues.
mrtksn•12m ago
Tangentially, I would love to be able to see the age of everyone on the internet. IRL this gives us so much context when having an interaction.
Devasta•11m ago
So in order to be a part of European society I need to accept the terms and conditions of US companies?

What happens if something goes wrong and you have to rely on contacting a human in Google of all places? Sorry, you have a copyright strike on your YouTube account, now you can't file taxes! Hopefully you have enough followers on Twitter than you can get them to pay attention.

dvdkon•6m ago
I finally took a look at the DSA, and it only mentions anything relevant to age verification in three places:

- Recital 71, which vaguely suggests minors' privacy and security should be extra-protected, but says that services shouldn't process extra personal data to identify them.

- Article 28, which says that platforms should provide a high level of "privacy, safety, and security of minors", again without processing extra personal data to identify them. It also says that the Commision may "issue guidelines", but says nothing suggesting age verification should be implemented.

- Article 35, which says that "large online platforms" should maybe implement age verification.

Furthermore, recital 57 says that the regulations for online platforms shouldn't apply to micro/small enterprises (which has a definition somewhere). All together, I don't see anything suggesting that anyone but the largest online services is being forced to implement age verification right now.

Judging by various posts by the Commision I've seen online, they're certainly pushing for the situation to be seen this way, but de iure, that's currently not happening.

EDIT: I found the guidelines mentioned [0], and a nice commentary on the age verification parts [1].

[0]: https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/library/commission-... [1]: https://dsa-observatory.eu/2025/07/31/do-the-dsa-guidelines-...

ktosobcy•1m ago
Erm... FUT?

- this project is just one implementation (POC if you want) - they simply state the current scope of the project

For anyone sane managing projects it makes sense to correctly allocate resources that would cover the most people.

and to all those whining butthurt individuals here - reality check is that it's way more probable that someone has and uses a smartphone than a computer. go out of your tiny bubbles...

Rocks, Pebbles, Sand: How to implement in practice (2020)

https://longform.asmartbear.com/rocks-pebbles-sand/
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