The Peano axioms are pretty nifty though. To get a better appreciation of the difficulty of formally constructing the integers as we know them, I recommend trying the Numbers Game in Lean found here: https://adam.math.hhu.de/
Pure mathematics is regarded as an abstract science, which it is by definition. Arnol'd argued vehemently and much more convincingly for the viewpoint that all mathematics is (and must be) linked to the natural sciences.
>On forums such as Stack Exchange, trained mathematicians may sneer at newcomers who ask for intuitive explanations of mathematical constructs.
Mathematicians use intuition routinely at all levels of investigation. This is captured for example by Tao's famous stages of rigour (https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/theres-more-to-...). Mathematicians require that their intuition is useful for mathematics: if intuition disagrees with rigour, the intuition must be discarded or modified so that it becomes a sharper, more useful razor. If intuition leads one to believe and pursue false mathematical statements, then it isn't (mathematical) intuition after all. Most beginners in mathematics do not have the knowledge to discern the difference (because mathematics is very subtle) and many experts lack the patience required to help navigate beginners through building (and appreciating the importance of) that intuition.
The next paragraph about how mathematics was closely coupled to reality for most of history and only recently with our understanding of infinite sets became too abstract is not really at all accurate of the history of mathematics. Euclid's Elements is 2300 years old and is presented in a completely abstract way.
The mainstream view in mathematics is that infinite sets, especially ones as pedestrian as the naturals or the reals, are not particularly weird after all. Once one develops the aforementioned mathematical intuition (that is, once one discards the naive, human-centric notion that our intuition about finite things should be the "correct" lens through which to understand infinite things, and instead allows our rigorous understanding of infinite sets to inform our intuition for what to expect) the confusion fades away like a mirage. That process occurs for all abstract parts of mathematics as one comes to appreciate them (expect, possibly, for things like spectral sequences).
I'd argue that, by definition, mathemtatics is not, and cannot be, a science. Mathematics deals with provable truths, science cannot prove truth and must deal falsifiability instead.
In the end arguing about whether mathematics is a science or not makes no more sense than bickering about tomates being fruit; can be answered both yes and no using reasonable definitions.
That's the thing, though — It does make sense, and it's an important distinction. There is a reason why "mathematical certainty" is an idiom — we collectively understand that maths is in the business of irrefutable truths. I find that a large part of science skepticism comes from the fundamental misunderstanding that science is, like maths, in the business of irrefutable truths, when it is actually in the business of temporarily holding things as true until they're proven false. Because of this misunderstanding, skeptics assume that science being proven wrong is a deathblow to science itself instead of being an integral part of the process.
[1] And even this has limits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_theor...
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/31859/what-concept-...
Other great sources for quick intuition checks are Wikipedia and now LLMs, but mainly through putting in the work to discover the nuances that exist or learning related topics to develop that wider context for yourself.
The tendency towards excessive abstraction is the same as the use of jargon in other fields: it just serves to gatekeep everything. The history of mathematics (and science) is actually full of amateurs, priests and bored aristocrats that happened to help make progress, often in their spare time.
Given the collective time put into it, easier stuff was already solved thousands of years ago, and people are not really left with something trivial to work on. Hence focusing on more and more abstract things as those are the only things left to do something novel.
But also wrong, the easier stuff was solved INCORRECTLY thousands of years ago. But it takes advanced math to understand what was incorrect about it.
I get what they're saying in practice. But numbers are abstract. They only seem concrete because you'd internalized the abstract concept.
Math in its core has always been abstract. It’s the whole point.
thadt•1h ago
dcchuck•1h ago
grues-dinner•34m ago
wvlia5•44s ago