And if you're employed, especially as a SWE, medical care is better in the US. If you're not ... EU >>> US.
Explicit taxes are better than implicit taxes. Forcing companies to provide social services such as employment guarantees or health insurance to employees makes taxes look lower than they actually are.
Because then the question arises: What if the current way of handling labor protection in the EU (as one of many components) leads to destroying yours and everyone elses standard of living, simply because it's unaffordable? Would you still argue that this is the way to go? Everyone going down with the ship together?
I don't know what will happen and what the root causes are (labor laws might not contribute much to the picture, I really don't know), but at least we should be somewhat cognizant of the fact, where the industries of the future are currently built and where they are not, and have a fantastic explanation of why this is not going to be a super big issue.
Somebody is paying that price. If it's companies they are disincentivized to employ people in your market. If companies go somewhere else to employ people, jobs disappear from your market. If the jobs disappear, so does the money.
It's quite an assumption that it's unaffordable. In the last decades efficiency has been only increasing, but working hours per week aren't significantly going down nor are the salaries noticeably higher.
Where does all the extra efficiency go to? It's pretty ok in my book if it goes to social security.
Through innovation.
I am sure there are ways to try and force companies, but I would suspect it's fairly complicated politically, given that that's usually not how that goes.
The EU single market isn't really single yet - and that is in my views the biggest obstacle to innovating start-ups being able to scale. If you want to release EU-wide you have to make sure you also comply to 27 national jurisdictions. It's hard. I work at financial services, and we really have to carefully grow and release per country. The UK would have been nice, but being even more different, for the company of our size they are a total no-go.
But I do think it works. The European countries with strong workers' protection are very attractive destination for knowledge immigration, they make a good chunk of top-10 in Human Development Index, and the whole of top-10 if you adjust it by inequality (so if you look at median at not an average).
> I am sure there are ways to try and force companies, but I would suspect it's fairly complicated politically
Less complicated in the EU than basically anywhere else in the world.
In fact, where industries are built is even more granular: Shenzen and the Bay Area. Even within the US, big cities have tried building their own tech hubs, and failed. Economic policy may have played a minor role in building NYC or SFO.
As opposed to what has happened in the US, where everything is happy and everything is affordable. Innovation!
Startups have a different set of constraints in Europe, one of which is the safety net for the people trying to become "ramen profitable".
A term they like to use is 'crabs in a bucket'.
Sounds like a propaganda piece to suppress both wages and rights here.
It isn't really. In fact, it's usually very easy: you just have to follow the exact procedure that is written down for you.
Every example I've seen when people have claimed differently, they haven't followed that procedure. Literally every time.
https://www.spiegel.de/karriere/entlassungen-wie-unternehmen...
The headline text translated:
> “I'm currently trying to get a severely disabled works council member out. We're well on our way.”
> Removing high earners from the payroll, compensating employees who cannot be dismissed: employer lawyers like Alexander Birkhahn are booming. Here, he reveals how companies can get almost anyone out—and how employees can secure their jobs.
In what ways, specifically? And which types of workers? Remember that labor laws aren’t exclusive to developers.
> It doesn't matter if it makes you feel sad.
Can we skip the transparent rage bait and personal jabs, though? There are other forums if you want to engage in that, I’m personally not interested.
Meanwhile it seems that Europe has been pulling ahead of us in measures that affect the quality of life for common people, including the working class. While the fear of "stagnation" was remotely believable during the 1970s, it's clear today that we're the ones who've been hornswoggled.
The US is still better for making software, as China is better for making printed circuit boards, but I'm not sure either of those things are all that bad for the common people.
Europe does lag behind though for many different reasons. One big is that the single market of EU is on paper large but in practice it is a lot of different countries with very different cultures and languages.
This is the biggest one. The single market is not really "done", and all attempts to deepen it face enormous resistance by national electorates that is now at the point to vote against anything that comes out of the EU.
For example, in order to sell a product in the Netherlands you have to have a sticker in Dutch, even though >90% of population understands English. That's a tiny thing, but makes a supply chain that much more complex.
For digital services it's even worse, the laws still differ significantly per country. Where I work we want to expand, but we still have to do it per country...
Here is it: they assume the "innovative" one to be the U.S., not China.
When hackers hear “innovation” they probably think of solving an existing valuable problem better. It seems economists and CEOs think of innovation as finding a better way to extract maximum mental labor for the cheapest price. Then use that to maximize the value of their own equity, at the expense of society if necessary. If you’re building a heavily isolated bunker in Hawaii or New Zealand, you’re not exactly signaling you care about the rest of humanity’s well being.
The business enterprise, in this hit piece, should not be simply another tool for improving the quality of life and helping create a society that's worth living in, but the sole purpose of the society itself.
The "cumbersome process for letting go workers comes with hidden costs" aren't really hidden, unlike the author, but transparent social protections ensuring fair treatment, preventing arbitrary dismissal, and stabilising demand. Something a decent society should fully embrace.
> the sheer difficulty of shedding staff en masse—a reality of corporate life—steers Europe’s biggest companies away from making risky bets in innovative fields
No, thank you. Europe's lag in high-tech sectors stems mainly from underinvestment, fragmented capital markets, and US monopoly power, not employment law. Labour rigidity has no strict correlation with innovation deficits (Germany, Scandinavia, France, Japan, and South Korea all had stronger labour protections than the US and managed to become rather innovative), but why bother with data when the point was simply to bash Europe for protecting its workers from predatory businesses? At best, the evidence is mixed and context-dependent (focusing on patents, for example, instead of genuine innovation)[0], and OECD and Eurostat long-term data show that some high-innovation countries have some of the strongest worker protections and unions.
> investments in disruptive breakthroughs [...] require the ability for big companies to hire lots of staff, then later fire most of them if the projects don’t pan out
Likewise, nonsensical economic justification for precarious work. For the most part, innovation depends on R&D funding, talent, and public infrastructure, not firing freedom (which businesses are guaranteed to abuse). Rather than treating humans as disposable risk capital, the author should take a look at US's own history and they will undoubtedly notice that a significant part of the innovation that it benefits from today was developed when the US had huge taxes, immense investments in R&D and public infrastructure. [1]
Strong social and environmental protections should be the bare minimum for any democratic society. Remove that, and no economic system, whether capitalist or not, is worth having.
[0] https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/publications/report...
[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259014512...
The american style lack of employment protection may play a part in fostering innovative companies, although I suspect being the primary superpower with the world's reserve currency may also play a part too.
How is being incredibly innovative making everyone in the US happy? I just see a lot of division and unhappiness right now. And some very rich people.
Seems like the solution (in both the US and EU) is to have some kind of mandatory severance, probably something like continuation of salary for 1/12th of time employed, up to 12 or 18 months.
Edit: This might impact negotiations with mid-career workers, as it'll make it harder to attract someone with a long tenure at an existing job without some kind of guaranteed severance.
seydor•2h ago
Matticus_Rex•1h ago
rich_sasha•1h ago
- EU: 1%
- US: 24%
- China: 35%
That is quite a favourable comparison for Europe, I'd say.
EDIT if anything, staring at these numbers, one might conclude the EU is not spending enough in general, in particular on innovation. Quite the stark contrast to being a money grab, IMO.
s0sa•1h ago
ghaff•1h ago
rich_sasha•1h ago
Since you ask so nicely, it gives me pleasure to provide further details:
- This link discusses the 2025 EU budget: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-annual-budget... there are two numbers. It is unclear if the budget is the sum, or if one number includes the other. But let's add them for an annual budget of approx 250bn EUR
- EU GDP is around 20tn EUR according to this Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union (the nominal number)
- using division I arrive at 1.25% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(mathematics)
For the US:
- This webpage: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder... puts the federal spending at $6.66tn (hmm)
- Wikipedia again puts US GDP at around $30tn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States
- We arrive at federal budget spending of 22%
I'm not claiming these are the best or most up to date statistics, but this is a roughly 20x difference between US and Europe, and I understand the 2025 EU budget is particularly large.
The notion that EU bureaucracy is particularly expensive has no foundation in fact, AFAICT.
rs_rs_rs_rs_rs•1h ago
rich_sasha•1h ago
What the member states spend, and if they do it well etc. is a totally separate question.
seydor•1h ago
Muromec•1h ago
unglaublich•1h ago