I’ve run raw Linux servers, I’ve run UnRaid, and now I have Synology and it’s been the best “set it and forget it” solution yet. Yes, the hardware is overpriced but it works and I’m willing to pay a premium for that.
You can't run Plex directly off the device like a DS224+ would.
Next time I upgrade I'm just buying mikrotik again...
If you're not interested in running your own, I think the most promising option is the UniFi UNAS which is due to be shipping soon (edit: Already has actually. A new model is due to ship this month though.) Ubiquiti, despite having Apple vibes, has been on a roll lately. The UNAS seems like it should be highly competitive (7 bays at $499!), and will probably be very nice for people who already use UniFi equipment in general. (Edit to temper people's expectations, though: the UNAS sticks to NAS fundamentals. You don't get the suite of applications like with Synology, or even a Docker integration. But you can use it as Network Attached Storage, after all.)
And it feels like for most of these companies it's a whack-a-mole of cycling from which happened to burn you last rather than any actually being fundamentally "better". Pretty every alternative mentioned in this thread have released some real bad products.
Go to the Synology website and browse to a NAS. Here's Synology's closest product to the new UniFi UNAS offering, the DS1825+.
https://www.synology.com/en-us/products/DS1825+
> See why Synology drives are ideal
And it just links to a marketing video announcing Synology drives... Does it explain why you should use Synology drives? ... No. It is literally 100% marketing puffery. They do not mention or acknowledge any of the dumb software lock-in tricks they were playing. Coupled with no formal announcement, they are apparently willing to do the absolute bare minimum to win back customers who left over this. Apparently for some people, this is good enough, even though unlike many markets there are actually plenty of competent NAS products. And we wonder why enshittication is so prevalent? We're paying for it. Its a positive signal that they can't get away with anything, only almost anything. Feel free to experiment with user trust! There's no consequences anyways!
And honestly, while Synology DSM is a pretty decent experience, though to be clear I have personal misgivings with it all over the place, I really struggle to see how it can justify the price tag. The UniFi UNAS Pro is a new and weird product, but by any account it does have solid fundamentals for the job of network attached storage. Comparing the specs... The DS1825+ comes with 2x2.5GbE... versus the UNAS Pro's 10GbE. It comes with 8 bays over the UNAS Pro's 7. It comes with a Ryzen V1500B over the UNAS Pro's Cortex-A57, both with 8 GiB of RAM. One thing the Synology NAS has is the ability to expand to 18 bays with additional enclosures, which is certainly worth something, but what I'm trying to say is, the specs are not actually leagues different especially considering that this is what you get without paying extra. For Synology you will pay $1,149 over the $499 of the UNAS.
Don't get me wrong. UniFi UNAS is brand new. I don't think it has support for running third party applications or Docker workloads, and there are definitely less storage pool options than with Synology DSM. But, it really seems like for the core NAS functionality, the UniFi option is just going to be better. Given that neither of these devices are actually all that powerful, I reckon you'd probably be best off actually just treating them like pure storage devices anyhow, and taking advantage of fast networking to run applications on another device. Especially with 10 GbE!
You could literally buy two UniFi UNAS Pro units and a Raspberry Pi 5 and still come up a little short on the price of the DS1825+. Not that you should do that, but it says a lot that you could.
So sure, buy whatever you want, but Synology already played their hand, so don't be surprised when they do what they've already shown they are more than happy to do. I'm not buying it.
And P.S.: Yes, there are plenty of mediocre or crap products on the NAS market, but you literally don't just have to buy on brand names alone. There are plenty of reputable reviewers that will go into as much detail as you want about many aspects of the devices, and then you can use brand reputation to fill in any gaps if you want. It feels silly to hinge entirely on brand reputation when you have this much information available...
I am not a current UNAS owner though, so I don't know how well this will go. However, I am willing to make a gamble on Ubiquiti lately. The UniFi line always felt like decent products to me, but lately it feels like they've hit a good stride and just released some pretty solid good value products. I was fully expecting enshittification with the UniFi Express line and instead they gave home users great value and no forced cloud account garbage. I don't personally use all of the UniFi products, but I frequently recommend them and it's rarely been a let down. I think the UNAS still has a lot it needs to prove, and adding support for Docker workloads would go a long way to making their offering have more parity with Synology's, but even without it, it is challenging to ignore how much better of a deal you're getting for the core functionality for sure.
I of course hope people do some level of research before buying things based on Internet comments of course, but I think this could be a good way forward for a lot of people. I do acknowledge Synology DSM has a lot of stuff built in, but frankly most of it just isn't that great.
I do wish TrueNAS Core (FreeBSD based) would stick around (it's still going for now), but TrueNAS Scale (Linux based) is probably OK too. Scale has a bit too much focus on being an all-in-one "server with storage" than a simple NAS. I like my NAS to be completely separate from everything else and only accessible via NFS etc. That way I can trust ZFS is keeping snapshots and no software bugs or ransomware etc. can truly corrupt the data.
It was genuinely like pulling teeth. They demanded I ship the drive at my own expense from the UK to Germany and they didn't send a replacement for 3 weeks after it arrived at their warehouse. I had to buy another drive to repair my RAID cluster while waiting. Absolutely outrageous customer support.
We have to start making open source hardware that we can fully control. It's the only way to be free. Corporations cannot be trusted. Any goodwill they build up eventually becomes a resource for them to capitalize on.
I have a 920+, and it’s too slow, frequently becomes unresponsive when multiple tasks are run.
They lag, and need to be constantly forced to improve?
My Windows 11 often takes many seconds to start some application (Sigil, Excel, whatever), and it sure isn't the fault of the CPU, even if it's "only" a laptop model (albeit a newish one, released December 2023, Intel Core Ultra 7 155H, 3800 (max 4800) Mhz, 16 Cores, 22 Logical Processors).
Whenever software feels slow as of the last 1+ decades, look at the software first and not the CPU as the culprit, unless you are really sure it's the workload and calculations.
Their hardware is limited already, and they also artificially limit it further by software.
They changed course now, and allow using any HDD. Will DSM display all relevant SMART attributes? We will see!
But even in the more business/enterprise segment you're getting screwed over. Let's go to the product selector here: https://www.synology.com/en-uk/products?product_line=rs_plus... and look at XS+/XS Series subtitled "High performance storage solutions for businesses, engineered for reliability." Let's pick the second choice, RS3621xs+. According to the Tweakers pricewatch (https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/1656552/synology-rackstation...) this thing went on sale the 8th of February 2021 (4 years ago). The specsheet says it has an Intel Xeon D-1541, let's look at what ARC (https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/91199/i...) has to say about this CPU:
Marketing Status: Discontinued
Launch Date: Q4'15
Servicing Status: End of Servicing Updates
End of Servicing Updates Date: Saturday, December 31, 2022
I'll let you make your own conclusions if that's an OK purchase these days.
That depends on the CPU… Some are optimised for power consumption not performance, and on top of that will end up thermally throttled as they are often in small boxes with only passive cooling.
A cheap or intentionally low-power Arm SoC from back then is not going to perform nearly as well as a good or more performance oriented Arm SoC (or equivalent x86/a64 chip) from back then. They might not cope well with 2.5Gb networking unless the NICs support offloading, and if they are cheaping out on CPUs they might not have high-spec network controller chips either. And that is before considering that some are talking to the NAS via a VPN endpoint running on the NAS so there is the CPU load of that on top.
For sort-of-relevant anecdata: my home router ran on a Pi400 for a couple of years (the old device developed issues, the Pi400 was sat waiting for a task so got given a USB NIC and given that task), but got replaced when I upgraded to full-fibre connection because its CPU was a bottleneck at those speeds just for basic routing tasks (IIRC the limit was somewhere around 250Mbit/s). Some of the bottleneck I experienced would be the CPU load of servicing the USB NIC, not just the routing, of course.
> far more than enough even, to power an NAS device.
People are using these for much more than just network attached storage, and they are sold as being capable of the extra so it isn't like people are being entirely unreasonable in their expectations. PiHole, VPN servers, full media servers (doing much more work than just serving the stored data), etc.
> There must be more than that, another explanation
Most likely this too. Small memory. Slow memory. Old SoC (or individual controllers) with slow interconnect between processing cores and IO controllers. There could be a collection of bottlenecks to run into as soon as you try to do more than just serve plain files at ~1Gbit speeds.
The appeal for me was the "it just works" factor. It's a compact unit and setup was easy. Every self-built solution would either be rather large (factor for me) and more difficult to set up. And I think, that's what has kept Synology alive for so long. It allows entry level users to get into the selfhosting game with the bare minimum you need, especially if transcoding (Plex/Jellyfin) is mentioned.
As an anecdote, I've had exactly this problem when buying my last NAS some time ago. It was DS920+, DS923+ vs. QNAP TS-464. The arguments for QNAP were exactly what you write. Newer chip, 2.5G NICs, PCIe Slot, no NVMe vendor lock-in. So I bought the QNAP unit. And returned it 5 days later, because the UI was that much hot garbage and I did not want to continue using it.
Lately, the UGreen NAS series looks very promising. I'm hearing only good things about their own system AND (except for the smallest 2-bay solution) you can install TrueNAS. It mostly sounds too good to be true. Compact, (rather) powerful and flexible with support for the own OS.
As the next player, with mixed feelings about support, the Minisforum N5 Units also look promising / near perfect. 3x M.2 for Boot+OS, 5 HDD slots and a PCIe low-profile expansion slot.
Transcoding was the reason I moved away from Synology. The rest was fine, not great but ... Okay
But there was no way to improve transcoding performance. If a stream lagged, it would always lag. Hence I jumped ship and just made my own
I have had terrible luck with Drobo.
I would love to know what a "good deal" is. Seriously. It's about time for me to consider replacing them. Suggestions for a generic surveillance DVR would also be appreciated.
Thanks!
It's entirely possible that their newer units are crappier than the old workhorses I have.
I don't use any of the fancier features that might require a beefier CPU. One of the units runs a surveillance station, and your choices for generic surveillance DVRs is fairly limited. Synology isn't perfect, but it works quite well, and isn't expensive. I have half a dozen types of cameras (I used to write ONVIF stuff). The Surveillance Station runs them all.
I get all the points about EOL software and ancient hardware, but the fact of the matter is I treat it like an appliance and it works that way. I agree that having better transcoding would be nice. But my needs are not too sophisticated. I mostly just need the storage. In a world with 100+ gig LLM models, my Synology has suddenly become pretty critical.
Selling 10 units at $10 profit is far far better than 100 units at $1.50 profit. Maybe even $2 per.
Why?
Because the more you sell, the more support, sales, and marketing staff you need. More warehouses, shipping logistics, office space, with everything from cleaners to workststions.
Min/Max theory is exceptionally old, but still valid.
So making a crappier product, with more profit per unit, yet having sales drop somewhat, can mean better profit overall.
There are endless ways to work out optimal pricing vs all of the above.
But... in the end, it was likely just pure, unbridled stupid running the show.
I haven't looked at them in years, but there are formulas for all of that. EG to help you work out if it makes sense.
What did NAS customers purchase instead?
So you can't buy 3rd party HDDs --- but Synology can?
Looks likes a blatant FU to the customer was returned in kind.
You can find the compatible drives here https://www.synology.com/en-uk/compatibility
The differences here are that they actually implemented software checks, for devices bought at MSRP. And so harm is felt.
Unfortunately for Synology I will wait to see if it's a policy they stick to or if they might change it again in the future, I have all my backups synchronised to off-site storage (Backblaze and Glacier), so the local NAS was just a nice to have convenience instead of shuffling through different local disks...
Make your purchasing decisions accordingly.
They can only make a profit if people are willing to buy what they're selling
> Their business is selling hard drives.
Then either they or you are confused. They make the NAS, not the drives. The drives are interchangeable and upgradable, that's the whole point of a hot-swap NAS system.
> I bet a large portion of profits come from that
I think they wanted a large portion of profits to come from that, but most NAS purchasers know that hard drives are a commodity/standardized and won't pay a premium for ... no benefit.
Also, some will deliberately mix drives from various manufacturers to reduce exposure to potential “bad batch” problems where multiple drives fail in a short space of time (possibly extra failures while rebuilding an array after the first failure, rendering the whole array untrustworthy or entirely broken). This is not possible if you can only purchase from one manufacturer.
If you want to get technical, their business is dogshit, and I'll be glad to never buy from them.
I honestly can’t believe anyone at Synology thought this would turn out differently.
Desktop NAS market is very different.
This was the first step or attempt to change that.
But that’s exactly what they did. Just in software.
If Synology want me back as a customer, they also need to get modern CPUs, 2.5Gb or 10Gb Ethernet and reverse course on H.265 too.
Thanks for all the fish, that was an enlightening experience.
OTOH, I wish them luck. They look fine for un-techy folks to store their data locally. Would like them to stick around. Also, competition is always good.
You need to add an external GPU for TrueNAS installation, but they have an official video for that. On top of that, they connected the flash which stores the original firmware to its own USB port, and you can disable it. Preventing both interference and protecting the firmware from accidental erasure.
All over great design.
Yes, it's not cheap, but it's almost enterprise class hardware for home, and that's a good thing.
You can either forego NVMe slots (which looks like an add-on card on [0]) and get the slot, or use one of the USB4 interfaces. OTOH, it has 2x10GbE on board, you can just media-convert it.
It's a pretty decent product, their browser OS for it is incredibly good and useful, the performance is pretty good and I've stuck extra ram in it, ssd for caching reads/writes (altho I have it disabled for writes).
But after what they've done recently I don't know if I'd use em again.
I know everyone jusy says "build your own!!!11" I used to be like that too I love tech. But sometimes we just want a tool that just plugs in and works, so we can reach our final goal faster.
I definitely learnt that with 3d printing, used to spend so much time fiddling with printer and never really printing until I got a bambu - then the focus was just on printing as much as I wanted, not much having to muck about calibrating each time.
there are plenty "barebones" NAS offerings that have the nice formfactor but you bring your own HDDs and OS
Same here. I have a couple of boxes running Proxmox in my homelab and I like to tinker, but I also have a DS918+ ticking away with my most important files as I just want something simple that works and is reliable
Half of the "build your own" stuff I've had over the years has at some point broken in some weird and exotic way, requiring a bit more manual upkeep and tweaking than I'd like from a box that is mostly just an SMB share
Don't forgive them, and don't buy Synology.
Yeah, so they reversed eventually. But the technical and support people at Synology probably tried to fight this and lost. That feeling of being ignored despite having given this company your everything for many years. I bet many woke up feeling that the magic that made Synology a good place to work is gone.
My guess is they will continue to lose the most valuable employees unless they replace management with some internally well-respected staff that understands their customers well.
Often I'll just voice my opinion and try to convince management even if it doesn't directly affect me (I don't work support). I think that, generally, we all benefit when things are done well and relations are not adversarial.
In the specific case of NAS support, I doubt that would make a lot of difference. I bet 90% of people will call about their NAS not working without first checking that it's actually plugged in. Why do you think this question is on top of the list? Had a very similar complaint last Friday: I work in infrastructure, and some people were installing something that needed networking. Dude comes up: "I don't get any network". Huh. I ask if it's actually plugged in. Nope.
Blow the dust out of the connector
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20040303-00/?p=40...
That's how we all benefit. But if a company wants to benefit more than you, they can. That's how enshittification works.
Source: worked AppleCare
I wouldn't be surprised if the decision was made BECAUSE Customer Support highlighted the support-effort to debug all these unique customer-setups within warranty, and then someone stepped in and proposed to kill two birds with one stone and only support own HDD's...
They wanted a vertical ecosystem of expensive drives.
If Synology drives had the same or limited price points as third party, sure. But Synology was charging Apple level prices.
But it actually is: because sales must keep growing, so the support burden typically increases linearly - while hiring does not, more often than not.
I've seen this at a few companies now:
* CS teams get built, delivers great support
* sales increase (partially thanks to that support, but there is no way to show it with metrics)
* hiring in CS does not keep pace (because it's largely seen as a cost centre)
* CS teams get overwhelmed and look for ways to downscale per-customer effort.
Cutting support can be an understandable, if unwelcome, business decision. But Synology's ban was a deliberate attack on their own customers, for Synology's own profit.
I'm just stating that from my experience it is unlikely that especially Customer Support would step up and complain about such a decision, it would more likely be R&D, Product or Sales.
Not to throw shades at Customer support at all. They are the ones dealing with the pressure of fast resolution time per case vs. large complexity to identify root-causes across different HDD-vendors, it's reasonable that they highlighted the difficulty here and someone thought he found the "silver bullet"...
All they needed was criteria at which point they can tell their customers "Please test if this reproduces with genuine Synology drives, and if they do we'll file an internal bug to fix your issue."
I get paid either way.
I'm generally looking for another job when it gets to this point. It's not healthy to stick around when things get to that point.
Granted that there might be some bias at work as a Synology customer, but I heard a lot more about Synology's lockdown efforts than I heard of QNAP's ransomware troubles.
Maybe open source your code or do something that is the exact opposite to vendor lock in in addition to the decision reversal.
I moved to a second hand beefed-up laptop and a terramaster disk pack connected vi USB. Same wattage.
It does take some effort, but now it is done. I like to tinker anyway. I pulled up Proxmox with a bunch of containers doing SMB/SNF per share.
Just like with Synology, I just look a regular emails with successful backups. edit: typos
If they had insider leaks I would imagine they mentioned that aspect so it's possible that this part is derived from speculation.
I just went ahead and editorialized the title with the insertion of an "allegedly" since the sales drop part is unsubstantiated.
> if they say that sales plummet without actual proof it becomes poor journalism
Proof is a high ask. Evidence would be great. But here yeah, waving the premise of the article away with "some reports say" is hardly journalism.
And if you did it to us once, you're capable of doing it again. To me personally, the "Synology" brand is permanently tarnished. For them to do what they did signals serious moral problems with their decision makers, and the entire move sounded desperate for profit. Just type "alternative to synology nas" and you'll get a whole bunch of options.
It takes decades to build consumer trust, and one stupid MBA driven idea to ruin it.
What a wild unforced error...
Shocking that it took them this long to reverse course on this strongly negatively-received move. The leadership should go.
And part of the magic of a NAS is not necessarily having to have matching hardware. In addition to other design basics like using drives from different batches to minimise the likelihood of multiple failures within data-fatally small time frames.
Monoculture is inherently more fragile; it's antithetical to good storage design.
This doesn't seem permanent.
As an owner and administrator of many Synology NASes I agree that Synology offerings are a bit underpowered compared to what is available in the market (from H/W point of view), but the ease of use and peace of mind within the Synology ecosystem (DSM software, apps) outweighs whatever drawbacks they have.
If Synology management takes the decision to refresh their H/W with new CPUs, NICs and more RAM, I'm sure they'll stay on the market ;-)
To change a company culture, you change the CEO. My view of Synology today is that they will pull the rug for their own benefit, at my expense. There is no way I trust this Synology ever again. Now I'm on TrueNAS, so I'm already lost to them, but I also tell everybody not to trust Synology. And that won't change if they don't show me that the company has changed.
Similar to Sonos, I feel.
It complained it wasn't compatible.
If that drive isn't compatible than I don't know what legitimate criteria possibly could be.
(Yes, I get the criteria is "what we prioritized to test" but my point stands,it's the high end of consumer-available NAS drives, not a compute model or a shucked SMR drive:)
blitzar•2h ago