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Htmx, Datastar, Greedy Developer

https://drshapeless.com/blog/posts/htmx,-datastar,-greedy-developer.html
70•KolmogorovComp•4h ago

Comments

andersmurphy•1h ago
It gets worse.

I payed the one off 299$ for a pro license but have yet to find a reason to use any of the pro features.

I was hoping to need them for the google sheets clone [1] I was building but I seem to be able to do it without PRO features.

- [1] https://cells.andersmurphy.com/

sgt•1h ago
Arguably that's good though - for the project. It means it's not a bait and switch like many have claimed. You can build pretty much anything with regular Datastar.
Tepix•1h ago
I don't understand. Why is it a problem with Datastar if you buy their Pro license without needing it?
aquariusDue•38m ago
The comment is tongue in cheek. On the discord it was discussed at length and some of the plugins in the Pro version were actually considered anti-patterns, it actually is kinda easy to complicate things needlessly when getting used to D* and I know I did this too in the beginning.

As was said by the commenter in another reply, the inspector is actually the bit that makes the Pro version much more appealing but most people wouldn't know from the sidelines.

nchmy•1h ago
I, also, was swindled by those cultists.

I thought the devs' emphatic assertions in their Discord NOT to buy Datastar Pro was a psyop dark pattern. I bought it to spite them, and barely use any of it. I want my css-in-js back!

sudodevnull•29m ago
he is out of line but he is right
infecto•44m ago
Could not tell if sarcasm or not. This seems awesome to me. You are using a piece of software and supporting it.
andersmurphy•36m ago
Sorry, yes it was sarcasm (I should have indicated that explicitly). I'm happy to fund a tool that I really enjoy using, even if I don't use any of the PRO features.
rcakebread•1h ago
Odd statement from a doctor using this at his practice:

"It is not like $299 is much for me, but I am just a hobbist."

simlevesque•1h ago
It's one of the worst blog post I've ever read.

They kind of have a point but everything around it is ridiculous.

ivape•58m ago
Yeah man. He’s a just a hobbit. But, aren’t we all just hobbits really?
sorry_i_lisp•1h ago
Finally someone is speaking truth to power. These registered non-profits that release their code for free and their leisure time for support need to be knocked down a notch.

We all know they are evil. But you know the most evil thing? That code that was previously released under a free license? Still sneakily on display in the git history like the crown jewels in the Tower of London. Except of armed guard defending the code that wants to be free once more it's hidden behind arcane git commands. Name me a single person that knows how to navigate the git history. I'm waiting. Spoiler alert: I asked Claude and they don't exist.

notpushkin•52m ago
1. Open LICENSE on GitHub

2. Click on the commit ID

3. You’ll see something like “1 parent: fdsfgsd” – click through to that commit

4. Browse

I mean, it’s a shitty move for sure, but eh.

sritchie•40m ago
(Parent was being sarcastic)
notpushkin•14m ago
Huh! I’m getting rusty.
tclancy•35m ago
Sure, but this person is a doctor (or similar) who took time to learn to code this form up to better serve their patients. They are most likely blessedly ignorant of software licenses and version control.
sudodevnull•32m ago
Yes, much power! Datastar is the worst, how dare they?
chuckadams•1h ago
Datastar's ideas look wonderful, and I've thought of adopting it myself, but hobbling the open source version to not compete with pro this early on sounds like a fast ticket to a hard fork. It's not like they command a vast ecosystem that would be reluctant to switch.
nchmy•58m ago
> sounds like a fast ticket to a hard fork.

Indeed! Could you do us all a favour and fork the pre-pro plugins and make them compatible with the current iteration of d* pro? They're all like 50 LOC, after all, so should be simple.

chuckadams•49m ago
Were I so inclined, I'd make them compatible with non-pro. And more likely just take my fork in whatever direction I cared to, just keeping the wire format compatible (and likely negotiable). But it's a project best left for people actually using Datastar, not curious onlookers like me.
nchmy•34m ago
Given the simplicity of doing such a fork, and that no one has done it yet, perhaps this is a non-issue?
sudodevnull•30m ago
Please do! I highly recommend doing that, PLEASE FORK
johnald•1h ago
I don't get why people get so worked up over Datastar's pro tier - you almost certainly don't need it.
nchmy•55m ago
yeah, but i WANT it
andersmurphy•49m ago
The inspector is great, but it's too much work to swap out the free bundle for the pro bundle every time I want to use it.
nchmy•32m ago
I'm only working in local dev right now, so i've got the pro version and inspector going. When I get to prod, perhaps this will be a problem.

Yet, surely, this could just be toggled with an env var or db setting or something? if dev, include pro and inspector component. If prod, use free version (or custom bundle that only has what you need)

croes•42m ago
That's how people tick. We aren't satisfied with what we have if there is more. Doesn't matter if we need it.
WD-42•58m ago
Datastar always rubbed me the wrong way. The author was constantly pushing it in the HTMX discord, telling anyone who would listen that if they liked HTMX how great Datastar would be for them. Some pretty classy comments from them on reddit too:

> It was a full rewrite. Use the beta release forever if it has all the tools you need. No one is stopping you.

> Open source doesn't owe you anything and I expect the same back.

nchmy•56m ago
> The author was constantly pushing it in the HTMX discord, telling anyone who would listen that if they liked HTMX how great Datastar would be for them

You know who else does that? THE DEVELOPER OF HTMX! https://htmx.org/essays/alternatives/

> Some pretty classy comments from them on reddit too:

What is unclassy about those comments? Seem sensible to me...

infecto•47m ago
Agree nothing unclassy. People have this strange expectation that an open source project is out there to serve every single person using it with total attention. It’s not, feel free to fork the beta and use it forever, make your own changes. The pro tier cost is a pittance for anyone using it for profit.
WD-42•30m ago
I feel like you can push your own thing in your own discord…

Something about riding the hype train for a fully open and free library you did not create to push your product just feels strange to me.

nchmy•25m ago
there is (or at least was) literally a dedicated Datastar channel in the htmx discord...
WD-42•14m ago
Which has since been archived. Last post from “Datastar CEO”. I mean cmon, it’s a little cringe. That meme is funny when it’s about HTMX. Like at least try your own memes instead of riding on Carson’s sense of humor too.
jlengrand•53m ago
I had a running service written in htmx for some time. It is a clinic opening hour service to inform my patients when I will be available in which clinic. (Yes, I am not a programmer, but a healthcare professional.)

-> that was pretty freaking cool to read, loved it

also chuckled at the idea of my website making, health professional going all "What the fuck." in front of his codebase.

adlpz•50m ago
I just come from writing a comment on the other Datastar post on the home page, literally saying that I don't see the point of it and that I don't like it.

But I'm now here to defend Datastar.

It's their code, which, up to now, they built and literally given away totally for free, under a MIT license. Everything (even what "they moved to the Pro tier") should still be free and under the MIT license that it was published under originally.

You just decided to rely and freeload (as, as far as I can tell, you never contributed to the project).

You decided to rely on a random third party that owns the framework. And now you're outraged because they've decided that from now on, future work will be paid.

You know the three magic words:

Just. Fork. It.

chuckadams•32m ago
I'll certainly defend d*'s right to do what they did, but the wisdom of doing so is going to come into question as soon as they reject a PR because it contains a feature that's in Pro. I don't think people who are concerned about that deserve to be called "freeloaders", but I guess a fork is a way out of such acidic rhetoric too.
nchmy•27m ago
D* has a core, which is open and will be set in stone soon when v1 is released, with the expectation that it'll barely, if ever, change again.

The rest is plugins, which anyone can write or modify. There's no need for the plugins to get merged upstream - just use them in your project, and share them publicly if you want. You could even do the same with the pre-pro versions of the pro plugins - just make the (likely minor) modifications to make them compatible with the current datastar core.

They're also going to be releasing a formal public plugin api in the next release. Presumably it'll be even easier to do all of this then.

chuckadams•11m ago
Sounds like they put some real thought into it then, which is good news. I was picturing two different core distributions, which would create the sort of conflict I was imagining, but as long as core does stay maintained, it seems likely that fear will stay imaginary.
madeofpalk•25m ago
Wait - what's wrong with that? It's their project, they can merge whatever PRs they want!
benjiro•12m ago
Calling the OP a freeloader is over the top.

The software was released as a free version, with NO expectation for it to go commercial.

The fact that they switch to a paid version, and stripping out features from the original free version, is called "bait and switch".

If OP knew in advanced, he will have been informed about this and the potential 299 price tag. And he will have been able to make a informed decision BEFORE integrating the code.

> You just decided to rely and freeload (as, as far as I can tell, you never contributed to the project).

But you complaint about him being a freeloader for not contributing to a project. What a ridiculous response.

I feel like you never even read the post and are making assumption that OP is a full time programmer.

Datastar can do whatever they want, its their code. But calling out a *bait and switch* does not make OP the bad guy.

siliconc0w•40m ago
I was looking for a tool to follow along with signal patches and was a bit disappointed to see the inspector is under "pro"- that and the query string sync are the two nice-to-haves.
sudodevnull•25m ago
so you want nothing to be useful in Pro? you are telling devs how to spend their time and effort?
username223•39m ago
I tried to understand this, but it seems like a non-native English speaker met an LLM and used it to create a blog post. Can someone please explain why this exists?
sudodevnull•26m ago
cause people hate how you give your own gifts to the world of open source. fuck 'em

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vagyIcmIGOQ&t=20017s

devnull3•9m ago
DHH is spot on like he is on many issues!

There is a saying in my language which translates: give someone a hand and they'll take your whole arm.

nchmy•36m ago
> But the one that most inspired me was a web app that displayed data from every radar station in the United States.

Anyone have a link for this?

odie5533•33m ago
Having so many features behind a Pro gate makes this a non-starter for enterprise. How would anyone convince their company to adopt this?
sudodevnull•31m ago
EXACTLY which feature do you need?
naasking•30m ago
People can develop open source equivalents you know, you're not required to use the pro version to get a certain feature. From my understanding, datastar was designed to be entirely modular and extensible.
BrouteMinou•33m ago
Is the greedy developer in the title the one who wants the 3rd party for free without contributing, or the developer who wrote the said 3rd party and asking compensation?

I am confused.

benjiro•7m ago
The problem is that the developer of datastar did a bait and switch. Releasing the beta for free, and then removing features into a pro version with a price tag.

Nothing wrong with people making money on their software but you need to make it clear from the start, that it will be paid software and what price range.

Bait and switch is often used to get people to use your software, you spend time into it, and then if you need a Pro feature, well, fork up or rework your code again. So your paying with your time or money. This is why its nasty and gets people riled up.

Its amazing how many people are defending this behavior.

the_gipsy•30m ago
> But no, the datastar dev somehow move a portion of the freely available features behind a paywall. What the fuck.

Bait & Switch. They're in their right to do it, but it's a bad move, and nobody should use their project^M^M^M^Mduct anymore.

nchmy•23m ago
and youre in your right to fork the pre-pro versions of the now-pro plugins, update them to be compatible with the current version of the open-source course (a surely trivial task) and share them with the world. You can call your plugin pack d-free
the_gipsy•19m ago
I'd rather not get spammed by Bait&Switch projects that turn into products, thank you.
ianbutler•29m ago
Yeah cool, I think this is the point. People want to get paid for the work they produce and the dynamic in open source is not even quietly known to be unsustainable.

I like the communal aspect of open source, but I don’t like overly demanding and entitled free loaders. I’ve had enough of that in my well paid career over the last decade.

This way of getting paid may or may not resonate, but I applaud the attempt to make it work.

devnull3•22m ago
A lot of PRO plugins can be self developed. An example: there is a poor-man's inspector plugin at [1].

The replace-url thing should be a simple JS code using history API no?

[1] https://github.com/sudeep9/datastar-plugins?tab=readme-ov-fi...

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