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Decoding Without Pictures

https://hollisrobbinsanecdotal.substack.com/p/decoding-without-pictures
1•paulpauper•2m ago•0 comments

#1. Hello from Berlin. and 43 Years of German Failure

https://gersemann.substack.com/p/1-hello-from-berlin-and-43-years
1•paulpauper•3m ago•0 comments

Will more lending be freed up by relaxing bank capital rules?

https://www.ft.com/content/8c69189c-7594-4612-bf29-0847ed995d98
1•paulpauper•3m ago•0 comments

Machine Learning Attack Series: Image Scaling Attacks

https://embracethered.com/blog/posts/2020/husky-ai-image-rescaling-attacks/
1•kerng•4m ago•0 comments

Sam 3 name claimed by 2026 ICLR submission: Segment Anything with Concepts

https://openreview.net/forum?id=r35clVtGzw
1•sch-sara•5m ago•0 comments

Month of AI Bugs (August 2025)

https://monthofaibugs.com/
1•kerng•6m ago•0 comments

Gemini Enterprise

https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/ai-machine-learning/introducing-gemini-enterprise
1•smoser•8m ago•0 comments

I'm making a Chrome extension a day for a month

1•jasonlernerman•10m ago•0 comments

A data-rich look at New York's battle against rats

https://economist.com/united-states/2025/10/09/a-data-rich-look-at-new-yorks-battle-against-rats
1•hheikinh•12m ago•0 comments

Earning the Right to Be Illegible

https://www.joshbeckman.org/blog/practicing/earning-the-right-to-be-illegible
2•bckmn•13m ago•0 comments

Show HN: A Dead Simple Parser

2•pankaj9296•17m ago•2 comments

Faster Target Quality Image Compression

https://giannirosato.com/blog/post/oavif/
2•computerbuster•17m ago•0 comments

Wow Mind Blowing Technology

https://wealth-ai.in/
2•WoWSaaS•18m ago•1 comments

ChatGPT prompts and a lighter led investigators to a suspectedarsonist

https://www.cnn.com/2025/10/11/us/palisades-fire-suspect-jonathan-rinderknecht
1•andy99•18m ago•0 comments

Intel gives first look at new chips: Panther Lake, Clearwater Forest

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/10/09/intel-chips-panther-lake-clearwater-forest.html
1•gmays•19m ago•0 comments

Ask HN: Betamax vs. VHS, what other products had the same fate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war
1•kwar13•22m ago•0 comments

Acing technical interviews – part one (2019)

https://www.mikemroczka.com/blog/acing-technical-interviews-part-one
1•wallflower•23m ago•0 comments

Addictive-like behavioural traits in pet dogs with extreme motivation for toys

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-18636-0
11•wallflower•23m ago•1 comments

Easy Little Fixes

https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2025/09/easy-little-fixes.html
1•silverthorn•28m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Halloween Clock — a digital clock carved from pumpkin

https://www.halloweenclock.com/
1•efojs•34m ago•0 comments

Women athletes losing their periods was long considered normal. Not anymore.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6582086/2025/10/10/women-sports-period-athletes-menstrual-health/
3•mitchbob•43m ago•2 comments

A tiny bit-O-CSS for Stable Scrollbar Gutters

https://www.zachleat.com/web/stable-scrollbar-gutters/
2•eustoria•43m ago•0 comments

Cartridge Chaos: The Official Nintendo Region Converter and More

https://nicole.express/2025/not-just-for-robert.html
2•zdw•43m ago•0 comments

Why is Saudi Arabia buying up the video game industry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAjWuuinXZ4
4•thelastgallon•44m ago•0 comments

Probably the only public demo of a real-time, multi-agent AI governance system

2•Nel_limitless•44m ago•0 comments

High youth death rates are an 'emerging crisis', global health study warns

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2025/oct/12/global-burden-disease-study-high-youth...
2•n1b0m•44m ago•0 comments

Pritunl Client – open-source OpenVPN Client

https://client.pritunl.com/
2•eustoria•45m ago•0 comments

How I'm Using Helix Editor

https://rushter.com/blog/helix-editor/
2•f311a•51m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Orchestro – Trello for Claude Code with Kanban Board

https://github.com/khaoss85/mcp-orchestro
1•dpelleri•51m ago•0 comments

Culturing Yeast for Independent Science Experiments

https://chillphysicsenjoyer.substack.com/p/culturing-yeast-for-independent-science
2•crescit_eundo•52m ago•0 comments
Open in hackernews

Jeep pushed software update that bricked all 2024 Wrangler 4xe models

https://twitter.com/StephenGutowski/status/1977055831720862101
171•PKop•2h ago

Comments

bbarnett•1h ago
Never heard of this guy. Would be nice to have some reliable validation this is true...
paganel•1h ago
There's this video [1] linked in the Twitter post, showing how the problem manifests itself and with other (presumably also) Jeep 4xe owners commenting that they had experienced the exact same issue.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGY6JWhHiU

tclancy•33m ago
He's clearly a real person and reliable, because the thread is inundated with all sorts of . . . people pushing weird agendas.
cut3•1h ago
sucks. any more proof than twitter complainer?
nubinetwork•1h ago
A quick google search gave me https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/wrangler-4xe-ota-update-10...
mikestew•1h ago
This should be the URL for TFA, not some random Twitter post.
PKop•1h ago
The proof is people's engines being shut off while driving:

https://youtu.be/neGY6JWhHiU?si=63fqYc5u6foH0w8p

https://www.reddit.com/r/4xe/comments/1o3if9y/loss_of_power_...

https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/wrangler-4xe-ota-update-10...

Any problem with this evidence, or are you just a HN complainer?

kotaKat•1h ago
designers are known to gaslight the end user, so
bombcar•1h ago
Perhaps the users were just holding the Jeep wrong.
lotsofpulp•1h ago
Asking for proof is not complaining. Back in my day, being able to request and see verification of claims was considered a benefit of communicating via internet.
PKop•1h ago
It's literally a complaint so you're wrong, not that there's anything inherently wrong with complaining.

But it's dumb he called the poster on another website a complainer for daring to be upset about his car shutting off. There's no moral superiority for posting (complaining) here rather than there.

ryandrake•1h ago
Following this logic, everything posted to HN should have someone commenting asking for "proof" because a single article isn't "verified". Do you see how pointless this is?
lovelearning•1h ago
What kind of proof can be shown that'll be accepted by most people as proof of a bricked car after an automated software update? No matter what's shown, I can easily think of alternative explanations.
xbar•1h ago
yes, following the several links and reading led to confirmation by dozens of sources.
Xiol•1h ago
You cannot see replies to the linked tweet without an account.

The Twitter OP cannot put links into his main tweet because the algorithm will downrank him.

Isn't it just great?

jmclnx•1h ago
A wrangler using software just does not "compute" to me. But I guess this is our new world.

I drove a CJ for many years until it rusted out from under me and the engine seized, but I thought it was great, I went everywhere with it.

I would like to have a wrangler but it is too expensive, too many bells and whistles and to large, I would never get one.

Now I an driving an 18 year auto and hope to keep it going for another 18 :)

timnetworks•1h ago
Jeep parts and frames and cabs are plentiful in the right circles, you can still build out a good wrangler (2.4 or 2.5 or 3L) for less money than a new car, and know your computer is planted firmly under the driver's seat and not connecting to anything.
xbar•1h ago
Ugh.

This is a rabbit hole that beckons.

hk1337•1h ago
This reminds me if Radar mailing a jeep home a piece at a time.
jzb•1h ago
The Johnny Cash song, “One Piece At a Time” along those lines is a classic.
PKop•1h ago
> A wrangler using software just does not "compute" to me.

In the case of this Jeep bug causing engine shutoff and power failure, it was an update to the infotainment system! It's easy to compute that these infotainment systems run software; what's crazy is updates to them can cause catastrophic failure to powering the car and ability of the car to drive.

analog31•1h ago
Well, in fairness, it's informational and entertaining to everybody who doesn't have one of the cars.
technothrasher•1h ago
The American Heritage Museum in Massachusetts is raffling off a 1944 Ford GPW jeep in fully restored condition. Pretty sure there are no computers in that one! But sorry, floor mounted Browning 50 cal machine gun is a replica.

https://www.tapkat.org/american-heritage-museum/lkaKb5?promo...

1970-01-01•1h ago
It's an EV hybrid. It needs software to not explode.
pixl97•55m ago
Cars have been using software since the 90s, hence 'electronic' fuel injection. Really the only thing different these days is stupid over the air updates that can brick shit. Otherwise you'd have to carry it into the dealer to get flashed or a new module put in.
erikig•1h ago
This owner shared the experience on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGY6JWhHiU

- Vehicle randomly stalls every couple of minutes requiring shutdown and restart

- Shifter doesn't switch out of Park

- Dashboard lights including check engine/drive to dealer etc

chihuahua•1h ago
Dealer response: "That's normal, they all do that."
EvanAnderson•1h ago
This is chilling (from https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/2024-4xe-loss...):

> On my drive home I abruptly had absolutely no acceleration, the gear indicator on the dash started flashing, the power mode indicator disappeared, an alert said shift into park and press the brake + start button, and the check engine light and red wrench lights came on. I was still able to steer and brake with power steering and brakes for maybe 30 seconds before those went out too. After putting it into park and pressing the brake and start button it started back up and I could drive it normally for a little bit, but it happened two more times on my 1.5 mi drive home.

If that happened on the highway I could easily see people being killed.

amluto•1h ago
On a reasonably well constructed car, loss of power steering at highway speeds is barely noticeable. Loss of power brakes is a different story. An inability to actually get all the way off the highway before running out of speed could also be quite dangerous, and a loss of power steering can indeed make it quite difficult to maneuver at low speeds.
Eddy_Viscosity2•1h ago
If its drive-by-wire steering, then isn't loss of power steering the same as loss of all steering?
mikestew•1h ago
If its drive-by-wire steering…

Which it isn’t. What production passenger vehicles have no steering column? (EDIT: oh, yeah, forgot about Cybertruck.)

theluketaylor•1h ago
There are many passenger vehicles with brake-by-wire, but only one I'm aware of with steer-by-wire: cybertruck
lsaferite•1h ago
Cybertruck for one. I searched and found several, some without any manual backup. That's crazy to me.
inamberclad•1h ago
The cyber truck, tragically.
qwerpy•48m ago
I’ve really enjoyed it on mine. Steer by wire enables progressive steering. Having to turn the wheel over and over in other cars to maneuver in parking lots seems laughably primitive now in comparison.
constantcrying•1h ago
E.g. the cybertruck. It will also be more common as vehicles become more automated.
PKop•1h ago
Tesla Cybertruck, Lexus RZ 450e, Nio ET9, Toyota bZ4X

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steer-by-wire

lsaferite•1h ago
I'm shocked (literally) to see there are production vehicles with steer-by-wire. Couple that with OTA updates and you have a vehicle I'd refuse to ride in, much less purchase.
20after4•1h ago
I think most recently developed large commercial passenger aircraft are completely fly by wire with most controls lacking any physically interlinked backup.

Thinking of this somehow reminded me of the most harrowing aircraft disaster that I've ever read about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232

It's both tragic because half of the passengers were killed but also miraculous that anyone survived at all.

jmount•1h ago
Hopefully I am not too naive, but I think aircraft safety redundancy remains above retail car standards. Also, in aircraft they "have time to solve some problems", versus freeway bumper cars.
20after4•54m ago
Indeed, but read the link I posted above if you're interested in a fascinating case of failed redundancy.
sho_hn•28m ago
Engaging version by the incredible Admiral Cloudberg:

https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/fields-of-fortune-the-cr...

raverbashing•47m ago
Yeah

Also people say "oh what if fly-by-wire fails" well what if traditional hydraulic controls fail, which has happened plenty in the history of commercial aviation

Everything can and will fail at some point

No redundancy is redundancy enough in some %0.xx of cases. You can always reduce the number, but never make it 0

patrick451•34m ago
The reliability of software is so bad this is an absurd comparison.
dtech•12m ago
This is a safety standards issue not a "software" issue. Standards for airplane software are very high

Most planes have been fly-by-wire for decades and aren't regularly falling out of the sky

monocasa•30m ago
I also don't believe they install OTA updates while in flight.
sho_hn•30m ago
Although if they did it would give a fantastic new meaning to "over the air" :-)
aperrien•16m ago
Large planes are all fly by wire. In a commercial airplane, you're talking about moving maybe a quarter-ton of metal for the rudder alone, and against high wind speeds. There is no way to move those without powerful servo motors.
kraussvonespy•14m ago
I'm still stunned by Captain Haynes's grace under pressure:

Sioux City Approach: "United Two Thirty-Two Heavy, the wind's currently three six zero at one one; three sixty at eleven. You're cleared to land on any runway."

Haynes: "[laughter] Roger. [laughter] You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?"

And here's a truly excellent long form article on the crash by the always excellent Admiral Cloudberg: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/fields-of-fortune-the-cr...

bri3d•1h ago
The Cybertruck is basically the only vehicle with true steer by wire. Infiniti offered cars for a brief time which had clutched steering columns (a truly baffling worst of all worlds solution). Otherwise what people mean is electrical power steering, where a power-off failure means you need to turn the wheel harder (a power-on failure can be very bad and there are a lot of safety systems to limit applied torque so a driver can always override the input).
noir_lord•56m ago
> The Cybertruck is basically the only vehicle with true steer by wire.

It really is "The Homer" of cars isn't it.

linuxftw•57m ago
Well, at some point you won't have a choice. The government is going to ban ICE vehicles, tax the existing ones, and all the electrics will be everything by wire.
brookst•50m ago
There is literally no relationship between propulsion tech and steering mechanism.
buildbot•23m ago
I for one cannot wait for my nuclear powered steering mechanism. The reactor is of course used to generate steam pressure to actuate the steering arms, the car is powered by normal batteries.
faterniesauto•44m ago
> Well, at some point you won't have a choice. The government is going to ban ICE vehicles, tax the existing ones, and all the electrics will be everything by wire.

Crackpot uncle level of conspiratorial thinking.

linuxftw•12m ago
What do you mean? Many places are already banning or heavily taxing new ICE vehicles.
rangestransform•51m ago
The cybertruck steer by wire IIRC has dual redundant everything including power supplies (the redundant one is powered by a DC-DC converter from the HV battery)
teraflop•49m ago
That's great, but are they also running redundant, independently-developed software stacks? Because software failure seems to be the issue here.
rekoil•36m ago
Seems to me a moot point because in the end you still have one system that's always going to be a single point of failure, and that's the steering wheel, if the system taking inputs from that fails to relay them (or fails to register them at all) to one of the two redundant software stacks, you're still up shit creek.
AlotOfReading•21m ago
All the electrical steering columns designs I've seen have used redundant sensors (often groups of them) specifically for that reason. The physical steering wheel to the shaft is still a SPOF, but it's also a "dumb" part where the only failure cases are mechanical. Eliminating failures there is straightforward engineering.
OptionOfT•28m ago
I think there are only a couple of cars that are steer-by-wire.

The Infinity Q50, QX50, QX55 and QX60 (with backup that connects upon electric failure).

Without backup, but triple redundancy, can be found in the Tesla Cybertruck. But I'd take that redundancy with a grain of salt as they don't have the best track record telling you the truth.

That said, I really with companies would go back to the good old hydraulic steering. I don't need self-parking. But self-parking needs at least electric steering (with our without steering column).

ajross•44s ago
> self-parking needs at least electric steering

You can control a hydraulic system automatically. That's literally what ABS braking is on the same cars already.

pavel_lishin•1h ago
I've lost power steering on my dad's F250 once. It was incredibly noticeable, since I had to crank the wheel like a ship from the age of sail in order to get onto the shoulder.

I guess you could argue that it wasn't a reasonably well constructed car.

slau•1h ago
In most situations a rudder is very, very gentle on the hands. You rarely have to crank down hard.
collingreen•47m ago
I think the comment was about how noticeably _far_ they needed to turn the wheel not how hard it was to turn it.
amluto•37m ago
The amount you turn the wheel is identical [0] with or without power steering, unless perhaps you have one of the weird variable turn ratio systems. In a conventional power steering system, the steering wheel is linked to the wheels, and the power steering applies torque to help you turn the wheel but does not change the relationship between the steering wheel and the wheels.

[0] Almost identical. The steering has some flex, and the amount it flexes is related to how much torque you apply. But this is a tiny effect.

amluto•51m ago
I had flaky power steering on an old Lexus LS400, and it would stop working for minutes at a time, more or less at random. At 40mph, I could generally tell that it wasn’t working but there was no meaningful extra difficulty when steering. At 15-20mph it was quite a bit harder to steer. At 5mph, it took some real force to steer. At parking speeds, it was very hard to make the large wheel movements needed to park. At a full stop it was almost impossible.

In general, this wasn’t especially hazardous, since I rarely needed to move the wheel very far while moving at very low speed in a place where other cars could be a hazard.

(Yes, I got this fixed. And the old LS400 cars were extremely well designed and built.)

analog31•26m ago
I lost power steering every day during the winter in my old car, when the engine stalled while coasting through a particular intersection, and I was busy re-starting it and negotiating the turn.

It's amazing how much more reliable cars have gotten. You used to be always on the alert for some critical function to fail spontaneously, and also listening for warning signs.

NewJazz•1h ago
Loss of power steering is definitely noticeable. Especially when it comes to getting off the freeway.
rpdillon•57m ago
Lost power steering at highway speeds in my '91 Corolla a couple of decades back. Didn't notice on the highway (belt just made a loud pang and I thought "What the heck was that?"), but as soon as I took an exit and had to turn at the light, I seriously had to muscle the wheel over. Good learning experience about what power steering offers.
AndrewKemendo•1h ago
My assumption is that the HN audience is not perfectly gaussian distribution of the population but probably not extremely far from it.

So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?

A vehicle is a personal safety device, that allows for independent travel away from bad things and towards safe things. That is one of the most critical aspects of a vehicle.

Assuming that one of the most critical times you might need a vehicle is fleeing oppression, having a remote switch off as a possible vector to impede your escape is an existential threat and basically makes one of the core reasons to have a vehicle moot.

My assumption is that most people are not thinking about their vehicle as one of the most critical tools for freedom.

Having traveled the world and lived in war zones, vehicles are life savers and it’s insane to me that anyone would allow a possibility for someone else, specifically corporations and governments with major power levers, to even have the ability to stop that remotely.

hamburglar•1h ago
Given the increasing computerization of modern cars, how could you possibly verify that this wasn’t possible on *any* car you buy?

The only way I can think of is “don’t buy a car made within the last 25 years”

lazide•1h ago
This is why some hardcore folks go ‘trad diesel’. Just glowplugs and mechanical parts!

Notably, you have to go back to 70’ish era to get that kind of equipment. Almost everything else has some kind of ECU.

Cellular connections didn’t start becoming somewhat common until the late 90’s-early 2000’s though.

jimnotgym•1h ago
There is a UK company that puts engines with mechanical fuel pumps in newer cars. Particularly newer landrovers. £10k ugrade, and the last car you need ever buy.

https://dieselpumpuk.com/

danielbln•1h ago
So, either a modern safe car with a remote killswitch or a deathtrap car that will kill you in many exciting ways. Sophie's choice of cars.
mattmaroon•24m ago
It’s only a sophie’s choice if you’re really bad at math, if not you’ll take your chances with the kill switch thing that’s never been confirmed to hurt anyone over the thing that kills tens of thousands of Americans a year.
jimnotgym•1h ago
Don't buy modern cars. There is a real movement to keep driving cars from circa 2010. This was around peak car for me. You could still block off the egr valve, remove the cat and any dpf nonsense. No 'driving aids' to distract and infuriate me. No touch screens to distract and infuriate me. No software updates. Can still get over 50mpg. My car is going to keep being fixed as long as it is viable.
janwl•1h ago
Unfortunately increasingly illegal in the EU because of the ULEZs, mandatory driving aids, etc.

Buying a car from 2010 is a guarantee that you won't be able to drive it in 5-10 years..

gapan•53m ago
Can you point me to the directive/regulation that states that? I am in the EU and I'm not aware of any such thing. I have two cars that are 2006-2008 models and I am not planning on replacing them.
janwl•38m ago
There are EU-wide mandatory air quality standards that get stricter as time passes and that are being enforced through low emissions zones which practically make diesel cars illegal. This may not be the case in your country yet but it will arrive with time.

Regarding driving aids, some cities in my European country are looking to make them mandatory in the city centre.

Overall this is being done to keep poor people from driving.

I_dream_of_Geni•14m ago
OK, I'll bite. Name 2 or more cars from 2010 that got better than 50mpg. I'll wait.........
noisem4ker•7m ago
Deleting the cat is straight up delinquency.
AndrewKemendo•37m ago
Correct

I will not buy a post patriot act vehicle

AyyEye•21m ago
You can usually delete the modem on your car.
lazide•1h ago
They generally just don’t think about or even know it’s a thing.

Most people push button, aim steering wheel, and voila.

lotsofpulp•1h ago
Don’t even have to push a button nowadays. That convenience is apparently worth the risks. It’s really nice to not have to have keys or worry about turning the car off or on.
PKop•1h ago
> why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off

One answer to this I would presume is: there are no other new cars for sale without this flaw.

Why there aren't regulations or forced options in the market without these functions (as well as with physical control knobs instead of touch surfaces) is a good question too. There is huge demand for cars without most of this nonsense, yet I don't see that demand being met.

I doubt anyone wants a car whose infotainment system can be improperly updated to cause catastrophic power and engine failure while driving, if given this information and a choice to avoid it.

20after4•55m ago
The more cynical/conspiratorial among us (myself included) have come to the conclusion that this demand isn't being met because powerful people want it this way.
toast0•1h ago
> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?

Because afaik, all the modern cars have this as a 'feature', but there's lots of other nice features they have.

The best of both worlds right now is an earlier modern car where the 2g/3g modem can no longer connect to the outside world. Even better if you can pull the modem, but they're usually up behind a lot of trim.

estimator7292•1h ago
Like smart TVs, the only possible alternative is buying a 10 year old model on the secondhand market. Vehicles without these features have not been produced in a long time
no_wizard•1h ago
Or never wire the tv. Thats what I did. Everything runs through my Apple TV (admittedly captured by my years of employment there) but could just as well run through a Kodi instance
dripton•52m ago
Dumb TVs are still being made. I bought this Sharp commercial TV just last year: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCMXNRFH

Of course they're not mass-market and will be lacking on some other bullet point features, but if you really care about your TV not turning into an ad billboard in 2 years, they're the way to go.

mojosam•1h ago
> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?

That’s not what is going on here. These cars are not being intentionally shut down remotely. Instead, a software update for some computerized components of the car was pushed down to the cars and installed with the owners permissions, but that update apparently has severe bugs that should have been caught by QA.

voakbasda•52m ago
This is a distinction without a difference. Intentional or not, these vehicles were disabled remotely.

Even if the owner gave permission to install the update, I would strongly wager that they did not give concurrent permission for the update to change the behavior of the vehicle.

Of course, I sincerely doubt the EULA offers any way to separate those permissions; you are all in, or you are all out. Assuming that you even have an option to opt out.

And that’s exactly why these cars can never be trusted under any circumstances, ever.

mystraline•46m ago
"Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it.

"Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it.

"Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it.

"Update now. You cannot refuse since you said no 3 times"

Or, other parodies, "Just say MAYBE LATER to drugs"

cosmicgadget•1h ago
Wouldn't it make sense to keep your prepper car in the garage (next to the welder) and low-mileage? Use the one with fancy electronics as a daily driver and hope the revolution doesn't happen during your commute.
pavel_lishin•1h ago
> Assuming that one of the most critical times you might need a vehicle is fleeing oppression

That's a hell of an assumption.

If we're talking about population distributions, I would argue that "having lived in war zones" puts you well outside the center of the curve.

jrochkind1•1h ago
if you really mean help you understand why and that wasn't a rhetorical exageration, it's not hard to understand.

Most people have a variety of things they are looking for in a car they want to purchase, and other factors are more important to them than this one, which they figure probably won't happen anyway. There may be few options that aren't updateable over the air, and those options don't meet their other criteria -- if they even get that deep into considering it, which they probably don't, they just aren't really thinking about it. But even if they did. you don't have the option of buying your perfect fantasy car. I'd like to buy a car with manual mechanical controls instead of touch screen controls, but there aren't that many options for that either, and they may not meet my other needs.

kmoser•45m ago
Same reason people buy most things these days: convenience. Do you own a cell phone? It can be remotely updated (and even shut down by malicious actors), yet most people own one and don't think twice about it.
mattmaroon•30m ago
It is extremely far from it in the US, I promise.

But direct answers:

1. They don’t know that can happen. The salesman doesn’t point it out.

2. They figure all cars will be that way soon so why worry about it.

3. It’s never happened to anyone before so why worry about it.

4. We don’t know anyone who has ever had to flee from oppression in their car so why worry about it. And this is America, if that’s what we’re worried about we’ll stock up on ammo.

Etc

sjducb•1m ago
You’ve got me thinking. I drive a Chinese made EV. If China ever had a nuclear war with the west they would definitely brick all of the cars they’ve sold us. Also it doesn’t have to be China that issues the command. Remote shutoff of cars is a great cyber warfare target.
sethops1•1h ago
If I owned a Jeep I'd be dumping it off at CarMax first thing Monday morning.
steve1977•57m ago
I’d keep it and consult my lawyer first.
PKop•1h ago
It's important to understand this update caused power failure and engine shutoff while driving!
xbar•1h ago
Right. This bricked cars in middle of deadly situations.
elephanlemon•1h ago
If I ever buy a newer car, first thing I plan to do is find and remove or disconnect the modem.
lionkor•1h ago
Immediately the check engine light would come on and it would automatically pull over if you tried to drive it, I'd guess.
chneu•1h ago
This is why I bought a fiesta. There is nearly no "smart" stuff in it. Everything is still mostly analog and very user friendly. Plus the ST is one of the most fun cars you can drive.

RIP Fiesta model. Too amazing for your own good.

sho_hn•1h ago
Believe me that there's at least two dozen computers doing their thing in your "mostly analog" Fiesta.

Consumers tend to heavily underestimate the point in time from which cars started absolutely relying on modern electronics.

Eddy_Viscosity2•1h ago
Can confirm and they were shit. The transmission control module died on mine which means the car is dead. The TCM also died on everybody else's fiesta and fusion for a multi-year model span. I could not get a new one for 8 months while it sat in a garage.
reorder9695•1h ago
To me there's a difference between an offline ECU that just locally monitors sensors and controls components, and a connected modem and software updates. The former seems perfectly reasonable, and necessary for things like abs, which is obviously a good thing.
afh1•1h ago
You would be breaking the law in Europe.
mrgaro•1h ago
Would you? I think that EU mandates a mobile connect for emergency services (eCall), but can you point out a legislation which forbits the owner to disable it in the vehicle they own?
constantcrying•1h ago
Why would it be legal to drive a car where you have tempered with safety equipment?
estimator7292•1h ago
Why would it be legal to drive a car where the manufacturer can remotely tamper with safety equipment while in motion
theodric•1h ago
They'll have to find you first, which (without a cell modem and GPS) would be an undertaking. The cell antenna "accidentally" falling off or the cable developing a fatigue break after the connector might be easier to explain. A Faraday bag comes to mind, as well.
technothrasher•1h ago
My new Audi lets me turn off telemetry (at least it claims it does), but it complains every single time I turn the car on and makes me confirm two "no, I don't want to turn it back on" dialogs each time. It will also sometimes (I haven't figure out a pattern) tell my phone to auto-load the Audi app when I get in the car, for no useful reason, and then the app complains that it can't get the data it wants because I turned the data off. It's exceedingly obnoxious.
kevin_thibedeau•1h ago
See if it has a dedicated modem fuse and isn't smart enough to nag when that is pulled.
seanssel•46m ago
Mazda claims that they will disable telemetry via the TCU, but when I asked the dealership about it they looked at me like I was speaking a different language. I couldn’t get anyone who knew anything about it and ended up leaving. It’s insane to me that I have to go through hoops to OPT OUT of this stuff, and I had no choice to even opt in.
i80and•1h ago
A very very minor contribution to my choice to buy a VW ID.4 is that a number of people reported that pulling the modem's (user-accessible) fuse is fine, and just disables remote connectivity as you'd expect.

(I haven't actually done that, but I abstractly like the option being available)

Someone1234•41m ago
In my current car, if I disconnect the modem I lose the left front speaker and the microphone for the infotainment unit. Just noting for context, on this "I will just do XYZ theory."
zikduruqe•36m ago
Is it a Subaru? If so, I seem to remember a bypass harness you can buy.
xp84•1h ago
As a former owner of a Fiat, this is exactly the kind of stupidity I’d expect from ~FCA~ Stellantis.

(I lemon lawed mine. Got nearly all my money back!)

tonyedgecombe•56m ago
It's like somebody decided to take all the mediocre car brands and pool them together to create something worse than all its parts.
fuzzfactor•1h ago
If vehicles always still had to go back to the dealer for any type of recall, I would say that might have maintained a higher standard of what is supposed to pass for finished goods coming out of a factory.

The safety implications in this case really drive that home.

kevin_thibedeau•1h ago
Fiat mode enabled.
1970-01-01•1h ago
Flash It Again, Tony
DebtDeflation•1h ago
There is absolutely no way an OTA update should be able to impact anything powertrain related, it should be limited to the infotainment system and accessories. PCM updates should require a hard connection to the vehicle's OBD port at the dealership/mechanic (or a home user with the appropriate software and cable). NHTSA should investigate this.
PKop•1h ago
This update was for the infotainment system. To your point, that system should somehow be air-gapped from affecting the engine and power. There's way too much coupling of all this software and electrical components.
cosmicgadget•1h ago
Uh how would you change vehicle performance settings?
jimmaswell•5m ago
connect to the OBD2 port or something? there are lots of alternatives
NewJazz•1h ago
Why? If the system only updates with user consent, what is the difference between ota and taking the car to a dogshit dealership?
1970-01-01•1h ago
Tesla has been doing these OTA powertrain updates for over a decade. It's totally fine when you follow best practices and do good QA. Stellantis doesn't QA.
cosmicgadget•1h ago
Why? Requiring physical updates just makes pushing fixes harder.

Obviously no vehicle should be updated while in operation and all patches should be signed.

bri3d•45m ago
This reads like an OTA to the infotainment that messed up powertrain somehow. Plenty of manufacturers successfully OTA powertrain these days by using A/B flashing (the B flash programs while the car drives, next key cycle swaps to B and flashes A in background, next key cycle back to A, done).

My suspicion is that this was either a CAN saturation issue (ie - infotainment started sending a high priority message which could reach powertrain CAN) or a state management issue (ie - infotainment sent a “put modules to sleep” or “wake modules” message which was not handled correctly and caused one or more modules to transition to an invalid state for driving).

patrick451•22m ago
> My suspicion is that this was either a CAN saturation issue (ie - infotainment started sending a high priority message which could reach powertrain CAN) or a state management issue (ie - infotainment sent a “put modules to sleep” or “wake modules” message which was not handled correctly and caused one or more modules to transition to an invalid state for driving).

The fact that this possible proves the point: OTA updates are dangerous and should be banned.

bri3d•14m ago
I don’t agree that OTA should be banned, but I do think that additionally restricting in-motion OTA could be reasonable. OTA which is always opt in and modal is no different from diagnostic port updates except that it cuts out the need for a dealer visit. This seems fine to me.
BoredPositron•1h ago
The forum thread is more chilling. It seems they released a fix that they pushed silently. You can't verify if you installed the silent update yourself the support rep needs to use your vin in an internal tool to check if the fix is applied. "Park your car in an area with good cell coverage. Wait 10 minutes and do a reboot." After that I can try driving my car and hope the update went through? Absolutely insane.
uuddlrlrbaba•1h ago
A couple more rubber duckies on the dash should sort that right out
lifeisstillgood•1h ago
I think most “techies” know in their gut what causes this and where it’s heading - I remember doing PC repair post first dot com crash (first bankruptcy) and the amount of shit shovelled onto consumer PCs (every device manufacturer had its own weird set of drivers, drivers installers, app), every piece of software put something in there, let alone what MSFT started you out with. All of it trying to be “user friendly” whilst achieve it the opposite

We are going to see this play out in every device (car, fridge, TV) that is not locked down by the OEM (apple gets a lot of kudos and knocks for this)

Cars are going to be the front line of this war- it’s not a “right to repair” it’s “a right to have good defaults” and “no upselling opportunities” (I think of it as there are no commercial businesses anymore - just utilities who give clearly defined service that have clear APIs and endpoints.

Sadly I think the world will head towards a point where I will make a fortune selling Augmented vision glasses that remove the adverts reality …

ryandrake•1h ago
It should be a "right to not have product forced on you." When I buy a device, whether it is a car, a refrigerator, or an application, I want that thing that I saw in the store, as it exists on the store shelf, including the features and capabilities. I do not expect that I am going to maintain some kind of ongoing relationship with the manufacturer where they get to modify my device at their whim over the air.

Manufacturers should feel free to offer updates. If the user feels the tradeoffs make sense, then they should be free to accept updates. But this business where the manufacturer thinks they are somehow entitled to mess around with a product you've already purchased from them has got to end. It's not their product anymore, it's yours.

mystraline•42m ago
We've lost this game ages ago.

Its the CFAA for you and me, but not for corporate thee.

Sony was the first mass application of "lol nope, we sold a feature we decided to remove. Too bad". If our government cared about citizenry, this should have been a criminal and civil case both, under computer fraud and abuse act. But no criminal anything was done, and users go what, $20, 10 years after the fact?

If I did this, I'd be rotting in a jailcell for 20 years.

rekoil•28m ago
Problem with that is that if it's an online product then the manufacturer also _must_ provide updates to keep the device secure so that it continues to do whatever they sold you in the first place.

Also, adding features on its own is great, but obviously stuff like what happened here can't be allowed to happen, and those Samsung or LG smart fridges that became advertising boards is obviously also not acceptable...

Easy to call the bullshit out, hard to actually define the responsibilities of a manufacturer in a law.

ryandrake•19m ago
The manufacturer must offer updates to keep the devices secure, but it should never be able to force those updates onto already-purchased devices. The choice should always be with the user.
emporas•28m ago
> It should be a "right to not have product forced on you."

Even better, a "right to modify everything you own, in any way you like". Don't you like the micro-controller installed by the manufacturer? Buy another one, with the correct firmware programmed from scratch, and swap it off.

We are already well into a new era of software, in which software can be programmed by itself, especially Rust. What is missing is money transactions for software companies and their employees located everywhere in the world.

"Devices with no surprises". Retail shops in conjuction with electronics engineers put new controllers in everything and re-sell it. Open source software, auditable by anyone and modified at will.

Programs for every car, every refrigerator etc cannot be programmed by a company located in one place, not even 10 places. It has to be a truly global company.

In other words, I want your device, I don't want your closed source software.

grishka•55m ago
It's not quite that. It's features you never asked for being forced upon you by the market with hardly any uncompromised alternatives without these misfeatures.

I live in a city so I don't need a car, but if I had to buy one, "it should not have a network interface" would be my most important requirement. "It should not have a video display" would be a secondary one. If I had to buy a car with a network interface, I would do my best to neutralize it to make sure it stays 100% offline.

mindslight•17m ago
At least if you open a "smart" fridge/dishwasher/washer/dryer/etc, it's basically the same old cost-optimized bare-bones design (maybe one or two extra sensors for special marketing bullet point features), and then all of the "smarts" is on a control board that could mostly just be replaced (ECM motors seem to be the exception to this, and even those are straightforward to design a circuit to drive).

Whereas the problem is that cars have had computers for a long time (eg ECU, ABS, entertainment), then those started getting connected together locally via CAN, then finally they added an Internet connection for surveillance and control. So the centralizing proprietary software tentacles go deep into the car in a way that's not easy to remove or replace.

There is the black box approach of disabling network interfaces, but I could even see that going away - cannot contact network -> car cannot be sure that warranty recalls have been done in a timely fashion -> disable itself after a month until you "take it to a dealer" (or reconnect the cell backhaul).

cosmicgadget•1h ago
Looks like it's been acknowledged/fixed:

https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/wrangler-4xe-ota-update-10...

pavel_lishin•1h ago
> For anyone that incurred a towing cost or a diagnostic fee (or any other related expense), we will assist in reimbursing or canceling any fees. This will commence on Monday.

"we will assist" - a guarantee so lukewarm, you could put it in an icebox to keep your food fresh for a week.

tlogan•1h ago
I assume this is related to the new feature that lets you start the engine without being able to drive the car (it’s called “lock start” or something like that).

And the Wrangler is the only Stellantis brand that still has some value. Yet somehow, they’re finding a way to ruin even that.

RedShift1•1h ago
I think the biggest problem with cars these days is that the software has been written by people who have never driven a car.
hackernewds•57m ago
what makes you make this very broad and general statement which is most likely untrue
Kapura•53m ago
insane take. these are the same problems that all other modern software has.
blibble•53m ago
so Jeep have adopted agentic AI?
zxcvbn4038•38m ago
Allowing owners to choose when to install updates would address many issues. Most updates are uneventful, but I’d prefer to install them when I’m at home in my driveway rather than while road-tripping in a rural area, 90 miles from the nearest dealer, or rushing to meet a nonrefundable hotel reservation.
fpauser•35m ago
Disturbing — this kind of progress sucks! I want reliable things that I own that are under my own control. We should all stop immediately buying this out-of-our-own-control stuff!
alwahi•33m ago
Im yet to comprehend why a car needs a software update.
fpauser•25m ago
To streamline sales and minimize production costs.
fpauser•32m ago
This is the enshittification of cars.
tclancy•32m ago
I'd like to laugh about this because it's one of the things I love about my 2010 Camaro which wound up in a fairly sweet spot of having the basic tech I want (Bluetooth to the radio) without a lot of the nanny stuff I don't, but I once upgraded the operating system with two USB keys containing a bunch of C# from a stranger on the Internet who said he worked at GM. You had to open the driver side door between the first and second USB keys to make the process work.
rkagerer•30m ago
This is why I don't want auto-updates in most of the things I own.

It's just a crutch for manufacturers to ship half-baked products, and an attack vector for the next generation of shitty engineers they hire to damage my property.

treesknees•30m ago
I wish people would stop using the term “bricked” for fully recoverable failure conditions.

Jeep has already confirmed they’ve pushed out a fix. That is not bricked.

gchamonlive•17m ago
I agree, but I can't think of another term that would convey the severity of this offending update.
CaptainOfCoit•10m ago
How about "catastrophic"? Or "total failure"? Or "we can't find the word to convey the severity"?

Anything else than words that already have existing meanings. With that motivation, they could have said "... update that exploded all ..." since it's a really severe situation, but obviously we/they should use words that has the right meaning instead.

PKop•29m ago
Reddit post from yesterday:

"Jeep 4xe shut off mid highway

I was driving 65 on the left lane of the highway when my car started slowing down. It started saying to put it into P and to push to start. The car was off and I couldn’t accelerate! I almost crashed trying to get onto the right lane shoulder. 4 lanes over before it completely stopped and caused a huge accident They are saying it’s something with an update jeep is doing and the cars are just stopping! There were 4 jeep wranglers on the side of the highway as I tried driving to the nearest dealership 25min. It turned off 3 times

Will Jeep reimburse me if I get a loaner while my car is at the dealership? My dealership doesn’t provide loaner vehicles

Does anyone know what’s going on?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Jeep/comments/1o47064/jeep_4xe_shut...

hk1337•25m ago
What happened with Jeep is why Linus gets so upset about some submitted changes.
OptionOfT•18m ago
It used to be that when you get an update, software would get better. New functionality (remember Windows Service Packs?).

Now when there is an update they either change the UI (for certain people to remain relevant), or they add more ads.

monocasa•16m ago
> Roslin: It tells people things like where the restroom is, and-

> Adama: It's an integrated computer network, and I will not have it aboard this ship.

> Roslin: I heard you're one of those people. You're actually afraid of computers.

> Adama: No, there are many computers on this ship. But they're not networked.

> Roslin: A computerized network would simply make it faster and easier for the teachers to be able to teach-

> Adama: Let me explain something to you. Many good men and women lost their lives aboard this ship because someone wanted a faster computer to make life easier. I'm sorry that I'm inconveniencing you or the teachers, but I will not allow a networked computerized system to be placed on this ship while I'm in command. Is that clear?

> Roslin: Yes, sir.

> Adama: Thank you. 'Scuse me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPKGbg16ulU

Basically me when talking about cars I'll buy.