> https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087
>> This study challenges the perception of such structures as being purely defensive, revealing the Gobi Wall’s multifunctional role as an imperial tool for demarcating boundaries, managing populations and resources, and consolidating territorial control
The structure of traveling through that is that you follow the silk road between a bunch of major cities built around oases. It's not necessary to divert anyone with walls - the fact that they need to drink, and that they won't be willing to wander off into the desert, get lost, and die, is sufficient. You don't move people to the tax collectors. You move the tax collectors to them.
They aren't arguing that wells were dug to support the wall garrison. They're arguing that, because the wall needed to be garrisoned, it could only visit places where there were or could be wells:
>> our spatial and ecological analysis demonstrates that the distribution of local resources, such as water and wood, was critical in determining the route of the wall and the placement of associated garrisons and forts.
In any case, the traditional routes for the northern silk roads passed south of these walls through the Hexi corridor, at least until the Mongol period when many of them rerouted through the Orkhon valley north of the Gobi. Separate from the silk roads, there was a lot of trade/conflict between the northern Chinese states and the various Mongolian polities like the Liao. Managing that was both economically and existentially necessary for the border states like the xixia.
Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead of the other way around. More practical that way.
Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article show the region as being easily that extreme, and the words say this:
>> large sections [of the wall] were built near sand dunes that would have acted as additional barriers
> Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead of the other way around. More practical that way.
That's different in no way from what I stated above. If you want to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax collectors at the oases all travelers must visit.
If you want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you station the tax collectors in the markets they must visit.
These are both cases of moving the tax collector to the people being taxed. And in both cases, there's not an alternative. You can't direct the people to go visit the tax collector; they won't follow your instructions. What would be in it for them?
Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article show the region as being easily that extreme, and the words say this
That's different in no way from what I stated above. If you want to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax collectors at the oases all travelers must visit.
If you want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you station the tax collectors in the markets they must visit.
I'm not emphasizing this for pedantic reasons. This wall is generally thought to have been intended as a very literal manifestation of the boundaries of the state and this whole area is what we call a borderlands. Western xia itself is a bit of a borderland in its entirety, and probably found it pretty useful to lay out a very physical manifestation of their power everyone could see. That's not the only reason something like this would have been built, but it's a relevant one.
Medieval states were constantly negotiating the boundaries of power before everyone accepted the modern notion of statehood. Physical walls were a particularly popular way to make that point in what's now China.
And in both cases, there's not an alternative. You can't direct the people to go visit the tax collector; they won't follow your instructions. What would be in it for them?
But anyway, the mistake here is thinking in a modern transactional framework. That's not how (mongol-era) Mongolia worked. Hierarchy was based on personal loyalty networks. A vassal provided loyalty, which could include taxes. Disloyalty was swiftly punished if the lord could, or the loyalty arrangement was renegotiated to something more agreeable. If it sounds like a fragile way to run a continent-spanning empire, you've identified one of the issues the Mongols faced
Similar things existed outside Mongolia as well, but Wikipedia's going to be as good or better than what I know on the subject.
I have no problem with that. But it's unrelated to the idea I criticized, that the purpose of a wall like this is to funnel travelers with carts into a taxable chokepoint. A wall is not useful for that purpose. This wall is even less useful for that purpose than average.
I will note that the paper seems to disagree with you on what is generally thought of the wall:
>> This study challenges the perception of such structures as being purely defensive, revealing the Gobi Wall’s multifunctional role as an imperial tool for demarcating boundaries
But in this case, I'm inclined to believe you over the paper.
(I am curious about the fact that the wall was manned. That has to have been really expensive; it seems like it wouldn't be worth it for a mostly symbolic wall?)
> It's not [that extreme]. The Gobi is filled with marginal seasonal grazing lands
That doesn't really matter to the question of whether travelers attempting to cross it risk getting lost and dying if they go offroad. They're not traveling with a herd of sheep. They can't eat the odd patch of dusty grass, or find water.
And when the article notes that the wall seems to have been constructed in a way that specifically takes advantage of local sand dunes, that also suggests an inhospitable environment to me.
This research supports a broader reconceptualization of medieval frontiers—not merely as static defensive barriers, but as dynamic administrative infrastructures. The Gobi Wall exemplifies a mode of Xi Xia statecraft that used architectural investments to manage re-sources, population movement, and territorial boundaries. This understanding aligns with theoretical models framing frontiers as zones of control and interaction, rather than rigid dividing lines [57], and invites broader comparative analysis across Eurasian contexts.
That doesn't really matter to the question of whether travelers attempting to cross it risk getting lost and dying if they go offroad. They're not traveling with a herd of sheep. They can't eat the odd patch of dusty grass, or find water.
As for getting lost, basically not an issue for various reasons. More of an issue for non nomads.
Well that settles it then!
However, they're mostly saying there wasn't much in terms of artifacts to be discovered. And it's a wall made from unpolished stones, sand and maybe some wood. There' basically nothing here. They find some coins from 160 CE and then go on to attribute the wall to being built in the 10-13 CE centuries, as was already established.
> This research supports a broader reconceptualization of medieval frontiers—not merely as static defensive barriers, but as dynamic administrative infrastructures. The Gobi Wall exemplifies a mode of Xi Xia statecraft that used architectural investments to manage re-sources, population movement, and territorial boundaries. This understanding aligns with theoretical models framing frontiers as zones of control and interaction, rather than rigid dividing lines [57], and invites broader comparative analysis across Eurasian contexts.
Yeah, they _maybe_ used a big wall they had built for defensive purposes to charge customs.
There are no answers here. I'm sure it's interesting for other archaeologists to study the methods used, but there are no interesting rigid conclusions to be had from reading it.
> Built in 1032, the city thrived under the rule of the Tangut-led Western Xia dynasty. It has been identified as the city of Etzina, which appears in The Travels of Marco Polo. ...
> According to a legend of the local Torghut population, in 1372 a Mongol military general named Khara Bator was surrounded with his troops by the armies of the Ming dynasty. Diverting the Ejin River, the city's water source that flowed just outside the fortress, the Ming dynasty denied Khara-Khoto water for its gardens and wells. As time passed and Khara Bator realised his fate, he murdered his family and then himself. After his suicide, Khara Bator's soldiers waited within the fortress until Ming troops finally attacked and killed the remaining inhabitants.
https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
The name 'Gobi Wall' seems to refer to the section of the wall within Mongolia. Its garrisons and forts are numbered from G01 at the western end of the section, where the wall crosses the border.
https://cdn.grid.id/crop/0x0:0x0/700x0/photo/2025/05/31/land...
Khara Khoto is about 100 km WSW of G01.
wait is this dude's name basically 'Black Knight'?
Aspos•3mo ago
slwvx•3mo ago
LeoPanthera•3mo ago
Mr_Minderbinder•3mo ago
I cannot find an article about this wall even on the Chinese Wikipedia but Baidu Encyclopedia has one: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E8%A5%BF%E5%A4%8F%E9%95%BF%E5%...
AlotOfReading•3mo ago
And just to preclude the usual follow-up, these walls probably weren't major defensive fortifications intended to keep out armies of nomadic raiders. Their primary function was closer to airport customs, visible outposts that reinforce the boundaries and laws of the state.
mmooss•3mo ago
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087
> The Medieval (10th to 13th century CE) Wall System (MWS) stretches approximately 4000 km across extensive regions in northern China and Mongolia, as well as shorter sections in Russia (Figure 1). It represents one of the most extensive yet enigmatic architectural features in East Asia. In recent years The Wall Project, funded by the European Research Council, as well as other projects, has extensively studied and published on different sections of this wall line. Such research demonstrated that this extensive system of earthen walls was built by different empires from c. the 10th to the 13th centuries CE [1,2,3,4,5,6]. Among the different sections of the MWS, the wall section located in the southern Mongolia’s Gobi Desert is the least explored and still poorly understood. This study focuses on a 321 km-long segment of this wall line, located in Ömnögovi province of Mongolia, that we refer to as the Gobi Wall (Figure 2).
Aspos•3mo ago
AlotOfReading•3mo ago
Aspos•3mo ago
AlotOfReading•3mo ago
Like I said, the materials are similar. The design isn't.