That said, the best way to achieve the goals of the article at a studio like EA is make it an issue for the games’ primary audience, 13 year old boys.
The way that comments like these get downvoted shows why these developer union guys, whom I support, have so far to go.
Then why do people give them money?
It creates money, but contributes 0 or negative value for the actual gaming industry, unlike other companies like FromSoft that consistently hits the ball out of the park, pushing the envelope on new franchises and new gaming genres. THAT, is creating value.
stated preference vs revealed preference, or alternately, the people commenting about games on HN or reddit aren't reflective of the average EA customer.
the stakeholders/investors have priority here and they have sold the company to the highest bidder.
at this point anyone participating or showing support behind union is at risk of being profiled and black listed in the industry and not just EA.
its in their collective interest to setup in jurisdictions outside the US where labor laws make the latter illegal but certainly not in many parts of the world and jurisdiction arbitrage makes it a very real probability.
my advice to anyone working at EA or any unionized white collar jobs in this nidustry and relate to keep your heads down and don't post your thoughts in public.
Their points are cause for unions to organize across companies and industries (though solidarity strike action is illegal in the US because it's effective). But they take for granted that employers should have their way and that employee interests are best served by appeasing owners.
At EA a lot of the long term employees had significant stock holdings too.
In the context of software, the term "stakeholder" means anyone who will use the project being worked on.
In the context of business, "stakeholder" is an intentionally nebulous term designed to obfuscate who is supposed to be enriched by the actions of the company. Usually that term is a way of deceiving people into thinking the company's goal is to serve "the community", when in reality it's serving the shareholders at the expense of the well-being of the community.
Sometimes, it's a way of deceiving the shareholder for the benefit of the executives, e.g. some "DEI" bullshit that hurts the community, the shareholders, and most of the employees just to feed the HR department and the C-suite's insatiable lust for power.
It can also encourage workers to consider the needs of customers and suppliers, the ignoring of which will tend to eventually harm the company and its shareholders. I.e., it is not always a weasel word.
I'd note that the workers creating the wealth and doing all the work are among the vanguard of workers doing the best in the world, but the advice given sounds similar to advice that could have been given to slaves on a plantation, in case the masters be upset.
The workers do the work and create the wealth of these companies. The apparatus over them is just parasites sucking their labor off into profits.
Whatever the immediate strategy should be, organizing, educating and agitating is the order of the day, for anyone with any sort of backbone or self-worth (of course narcissistic notions to consider oneself a genius and everyone else is dead wood, as someone put it here, has been encouraged).
Making video games is a cool job. Making enterprise CRUD software isn't. Video game studios can therefore treat workers worse and get away with it because for at least some subset of the workforce, they'll put up with it.
EA makes games with numbers in their names. They do not take on a lot of risk, which means "anyone" could do it. So they have to work very, very hard. This is NOT a complicated idea.
ryandrake•1h ago
Seems to be a common theme in 2025: Actually-healthy companies cosplaying as struggling companies, as an excuse to justify layoffs and other activities that transfer wealth and power from employees to management and shareholders. Like, does anyone think any of these BigTech (and MediumTech) companies who are all doing layoffs are really "struggling" and "vulnerable"? It's always just an unbelievable excuse.
glimshe•1h ago
Corporations are greedy and let go of many good people. But they also let go of many people who deserved to go. It's really hard to get rid of bad people, even in the US. But you wouldn't believe how many bad people were in big tech because of the COVID over hiring.
I've seen dozens, if not hundreds of people, who went to FAANG and added next to no value. As a manager in one of these companies, I had to deal with a mix of great people and many who were absolutely taking advantage of the company. I could write a book about it. Good for them, but it's not surprising that the party would end someday.
eli_gottlieb•1h ago
Could you explain why it's hard? I've never seen anyone run into any kind of difficulty letting go an at-will employee. The manager can do so at any time, for any reason or no reason at all.
mikestew•1h ago
nkozyra•1h ago
lesuorac•1h ago
You can definitely argue it's not fair to pay somebody extra for not doing a job but the alternative seems to be you keep paying them even more to keep not doing a job (and possibly doing negative work).
Rather than put somebody on a pip for x months just offer them x months of salary to quit. Same money, same work done.
zdragnar•1h ago
There's a legal distinction which impacts whether or not the employee is eligible for unemployment benefits, among other things.
onraglanroad•1h ago
The company could be sued by a non employee too. What difference does that make?
And if your company procedure requires a PIP, then you do that. Again, where's the difficulty?
Nothing you've said sounds difficult in the slightest. It's following procedure.
wmeredith•1h ago
This has been my experience at two different companies in multiple cases with egregious underperformance. I suppose if an employee assaulted/harassed someone or was doing something else outright illegal like theft or embezzlement, they would be shown the door immediately. But if someone is half-assing their work and dragging the team down, everyone has to put up with it for months as they get second chances, micromanagement, and other special attention before they can actually be let go.
I think it's due to the litigiousness of the US culture. Yes, US companies can fire people at will, but they can also file lawsuits at will, which are costly (time+money) no matter the outcome.
ryandrake•1h ago
I was fired once, and there were no PIPs, no documentation, no warning, no nothing. Just "We aren't doing this work anymore and don't need you" and that was that.
Edman274•1h ago
Aurornis•32m ago
And if that employee can show that other people were allowed to wear green shirts without being fired, they can use that to support an illegal discrimination claim against the company.
The reason it takes effort and documentation to fire people is because companies want to have a uniform set of rules that are applied equally to all employees. They also want documentation to support the firing. Having a consistent process, applied equally and with supporting documentation discourages people from even trying to bring frivolous lawsuits.
Having additional process is also a check on managers. Some managers try to fire anyone they disagree with, dislike, or even to do things like open headcount so they can fill it with a nepotism hire. Putting process in place and requiring documentation discourages managers from firing people frivolously and adds another level of checks and balances to discourage gaming the system.
zdragnar•1h ago
It was incredibly rough- a lot of people who weren't being told they needed to shape up or ship out were instead simply told they're being shipped out. The only upside is managers got better about supporting employees later on who weren't performing, including putting people on PIPs rather than letting them coast.
stronglikedan•1h ago
But what you cannot do in any circumstance is let people go "for any reason". There are laws against that at any size, and you are looking for a lawsuit if you give a reason.
It's best to just tell them their position has been eliminated due to restructuring (has to be provable if you're a big company), and give them no reason beyond that. If you don't give a reason, they have nothing to bring a lawsuit for.
In summary, reasons are not always required, but are always a liability.
earthnail•59m ago
Then there’s the perverse incentive that bigger teams usually equals a promotion. So if you’re the honest manager who manages a tight team and fires people, you won’t get promoted as often.
Top management knows this, of course. To sidestep these misaligned incentives a company-wide one-time layoff is really effective.
fifticon•1h ago
glimshe•1h ago
grogenaut•1h ago
Aurornis•39m ago
If someone hired a lot of people who had to be laid off later, they would get more supervision and review of future hires.
reactordev•1h ago
There’s no correlation. They hired expecting a certain type of growth. They fired because of AI. The narrative that they were getting rid of bad workers was their excuse, not the reason. Many great engineers got let go. Many project managers that had been with the company through ups and downs. One guy was let go after being poached from a FAANG after his 3rd day. So don’t say anyone deserved it.
ahtihn•45m ago
End of 0 interest rates is the more likely reason.
jayd16•1h ago
tharmas•1h ago
bko•1h ago
I've actually always liked working for companies in which the objective was straight forward. None of this "we're a family" stuff. You should be kind, and all the places I was at were kind. But layoffs are a reality and reducing headcount at times is part of that. You need a way to get rid of dead wood, otherwise you would be too afraid to grow and hire when you need to.
dragonwriter•1h ago
Layoffs are a signal to markets of struggles, and firms absolutely do, in practice, need to justify them (and their scale and focus) to avoid the risk of a self-fulfilling market perception that they signal a problems that they do not fully resolve. (If there is already a problem narrative, much of the justification is obvious, and the firm just needs to cover explaining how the layoffs address the problem.)
helge9210•1h ago
dragonwriter•12m ago
(And even if it does, the fact that the NPV of a project "turned negative" indicates that the value of the company dropped, and the layoffs are only a partial mitigation.)
ndriscoll•1h ago
cudgy•54m ago
Another factor is that retained employees that learn of companies layoff frequently become concerned about their own position and the treatment of the workers that were laid off, reducing employee morale. High performers may start looking for another job in order to avoid expected future layoffs.
Then there’s the impact on potential future employees, who will also know about the layoffs. These employees will be aware of recently layoffs and will expect more money from said company who will also have to train the new employee that replaced the one they laid off before.
Finally, you have the impact on potential customers or existing customers. Some customers have relationships with employees that are laid off, and this can be jarring. The customers may become concerned about the liability of the company or the management of the company, potentially moving all our part of their business to another firm.
All of these effects are not typically beneficial to the company or it’s shareholders.
dijit•1h ago
However the best work I ever did was done when I didn't have a pressure of being fired for offending the wrong person, and that I had the psychological safety to think longer term- since a short term "time-waste" often converted to better long term outcomes for everybody.
bpt3•1h ago
Aurornis•59m ago
I felt the same way until I worked at a company where almost nobody ever got fired or laid off. Anyone who was hired was basically guaranteed their job until the end of time because the leadership didn't like letting anyone go.
It only took a couple years until every time you needed to do something you'd run into some employee somewhere who wasn't doing their job. Even many people who seemed capable and appropriately skilled started slacking off when they realized there were never any consequences at all.
It was like a broken windows theory for the workplace. As people looked around and saw that others were doing almost no work, it started to spread. The people who liked actually shipping things started leaving, turning it into a snowball effect.
So there's a balance. Always working under threat of layoff and seeing good coworkers let go when you're already overburdened isn't good. Working in a company where there is no pressure at all to perform isn't good either.
dijit•34m ago
There's a sort of apathy osmosis that happens when you realise that you can't actually do anything because everyone else is sort of checked out... so the you, yourself, sort of check out too.
I get anxiety and "itchy" if I don't move towards my goals with any kind of swiftness.
gjsman-1000•33m ago
To the point I even had a boss say that part of this happens because nobody is there to spank adults when they need it (seriously), rather than intervene too strongly and have to find a replacement or hurt feelings or something. Or another contract worker, I got an apology from said boss... but he insisted she's better now than she used to be, the latest incident is mild compared to incidents before I arrived. As though that fixes it.
Much happier now at a company which cuts dead weight; and accepts we can't afford it.
nonethewiser•7m ago
pmarreck•1h ago
Even if they feel they ARE being productive, they should be allowed to let them go. The ultimate point of a job is not to get paid, it is to produce work that accomplishes a goal set by the employers. So if they change those goals for some reason, then the letting-go should be allowed.
I really wish there was some sort of UBI to disincentivize clinging to a near-useless (in terms of ultimate goals) job. Heck, just making unemployment not contingent on getting fired (another perverse incentive) would be an improvement.
jasonlotito•1h ago
That's not what layoffs are. In fact, your belief is not productive. Why are you waiting for layoffs to get rid of people who are not being productive? Why are you supporting people being unproductive?
> You need a way to get rid of dead wood, otherwise you would be too afraid to grow and hire when you need to.
That's not what's happening. Generally it's a result of leadership failing to do their job, misusing resources, and needing to compensate for that in the market.
Layoffs are signals that the leadership is not being productive. Full stop.
johanneskanybal•1h ago
jayd16•1h ago
Layoffs are not about individual performance
fn-mote•1h ago
So getting rid of 20% of the workforce and selecting “the bottom 20%” is not a layoff?
jayd16•58m ago
rafaelmn•1h ago
dkxjxb•1h ago
We’re seeing the opposite and the wealth gap is increasing because the elites running our society see us as cattle, not countrymen.
The current point of our country is to increase GDP (which is a fancy way of saying make the rich richer, given the current wealth gap). It should be to enrich the lives of all its citizens.
bpt3•1h ago
What evidence is there to support this? Kids are expensive, and entry level jobs do not produce enough value to generate an income that can support several people.
> Anything else is morally wrong
Why?
beachtaxidriver•27m ago
In the post war boom it definitely used to produce enough value to support several people.
And we're far wealthier in aggregate now than before, it's just distributed badly now.
tock•21m ago
I guess one way is to increase the min wage a lot. But I am guessing employers will just pivot to hiring even less.
wat10000•54m ago
daedrdev•7m ago
conception•1h ago
ahtihn•48m ago
In almost all layoff situations, employees get severance even in the US no?
At least for the big tech layoffs that seemed to be the case.
cm2012•27m ago
gmanley•19m ago
dfxm12•1h ago
tharmas•1h ago
ghurtado•34m ago
Sounds like you've never worked here, but in the US that's always been the case.
US corporations do not need you shilling for their rights, they are doing very well in that department without your help, thank you very much.
mschuster91•32m ago
Alternatively, you can retrain the workers. Replacing workers has serious cost disadvantages: recruiting itself costs money (the HR staff dedicated to that, external headhunters, "employer branding" measures, job exhibition rents and swag), layoffs cost reputation, and new workers need to be trained in your company specific procedures from timetracking to expense refunds.
Unfortunately, these costs are all too often hidden deep in the balance sheets, which makes just dumping off entire departments while hiring up other departments appear much more financially attractive than it is in reality, all costs considered.
And finally, the ethical question remains: executives get paid sometimes a hundred million dollars a year because of the "responsibility" they hold. But in the end, they do not hold any responsibility, any accountability - financial penalties for shenanigans get covered by D&O insurance, and the first ones to get sacked for (or having to live with) bad executive decisions are the employees while the executive gets a departure agreement showering them with money.
IMHO, before a company can even fire a single worker for another reason than willful misconduct, the entire C-level executive has to go as well, with immediate stop of pay and benefits.
qwery•31m ago
And, yes, of course layoffs are something that need to be justified, just as with firing an individual employee, as you know -- the "employee is not being productive" is a justification.
baggy_trough•28m ago
gjsman-1000•24m ago
I also believe that the fact 1,000 employees can be laid off at once, and then flood the market with applications, is not something we should prevent. Rather, it's a sign we need to make more small independent companies. This is a concentration problem.
That would of course require that maybe we shouldn't have the Magnificent 7, but the Magnificent 100. Maybe instead of the Fortune 500, we need the Fortune 5000, with each one much smaller. Not happening anytime soon with current incentives, but I think it would be better for everyone. We shouldn't split Google into two, but into thirty.
It would be radical... but imagine if we set an aggressive, aggressive cap on employees and contractors. Like, limit 100, with a 1% corporate income tax on every additional person. Projects at scale - 50 companies cooperating; maybe with some sort of new corporation cooperation legal structure (call it the D-Corp, it manages a collection of C-Corps working together, and cannot collect profits for itself or own property).
gruez•22m ago
Isn't that most layoffs? Think of the layoffs post GFC. Did the subprime mortgage crisis suddenly make everyone incompetent, or are companies simply trying to trim budgets and need to hit some number? If it's actually due to poor performance, it would be through a PIP or similar.
immibis•15m ago
wholinator2•7m ago
It's about the immense asymmetry of power here. Yes, a person can leave just like a company can fire. But a single person quitting is nearly never a massive disruption to the business, but the business firing someone is nearly always a catastrophy for that person.
I don't need to justify quitting because I'm not harming you by doing so. Laying off hundreds of people absolutely requires careful and validated justification as your significantly harming nearly everyone impacted.
Of course these companies do pay well usually, but not all of them do, and not every individual has the privilege of cheap health and rent and a cheap family. Any single significant factor in a persons life can cause that "well paid" factor to mean a lot less, especially if it drags out to 6 months or more like it is known to do
ikrenji•26m ago
screye•24m ago
In demanding industries, people spend 2/3rds of their waking hours around their coworkers. That's practically their whole life. It's cruel to encourage coldness in such an environment. You aren't family. But, you can be comrades. Your friendships can be forged through shared struggles, shared spaces and convenience.
It's a unique trait of tech companies to encourage cold but polite relations with your coworkers. Other industries have layoffs, politics and capitalistic competition. That doesn't stop coworkers from becoming friends.
The new generation is more isolated than ever before. The workplace is one of the few remaining mandatory social spaces. We should encourage the organic warmth that builds up between coworkers. It's cliche. But we're social animals.
AlexandrB•2m ago
pfisch•10m ago
I don't know that it should be legal to buy a company and then pay for it by loading up the company with debt obligations. It seems like a form of value destruction in order to enrich a bunch of vultures.
Fundamentally it is basically saying maybe we could buy this company and then plunder it with some % chance that it will still stay afloat and keep generating profit after they gut the company to try to service a debt that should not be attached to the company at all and provided no value to anyone but the vultures.
alfalfasprout•9m ago
Companies need to be strategic with the messaging so as to not scare shareholders. Hence, they use "strategic refocusing on AI" or "operating leaner and faster" as buzzwords to characterize the layoffs.
In reality, in the last couple years companies are just trying to slash costs however they can because real sustained growth is highly uncertain.
simonjgreen•9m ago
If an employee is not being productive, that is a performance management issue and a good company will start by trying to fix it and if that doesn’t work will replace them. A bad company will retain bad performing people.
Layoffs are when you don’t have the work for them or you can’t afford something so are restructuring or similar. A good company will make layoffs and restructure if the economics require it. A bad company will keep going without doing that, ignoring their finances.
jandrese•2m ago
jayd16•1h ago
That said, I think its completely justified for union bargaining to push back on the idea that its the emplpoyees that should burden that problem.
leetharris•1h ago
A company can be successful by most metrics, but if certain trends are not heading in the right direction, then faith in the stock drops, employee compensation goes down, future investments become dicey, etc.
This is the nature of public companies. This is why they don't want to be public anymore.
Eric_WVGG•1h ago
If the point of a corporation is profitability and good product, they had that.
But if the point is growth, then all that leaves is branching into other verticals, which leaves… movies and gambling?
loving that late stage capitalism!
screye•40m ago
Video game employees (programmers) are famously overworked, layoff prone and have little say in executive matters. I can't imagine how PE could make things worse.
The video game industry has been in an odd place for a while. The 2020s haven't produced many reliable AAA hits.
manoDev•29m ago
So what (public) companies do is over hire during growth, then lay off later to transfer the value created by these workers to shareholders. Rinse, repeat.
yunyu•28m ago
RobotCaleb•7m ago