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ICE and the Smartphone Panopticon

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/ice-and-the-smartphone-panopticon
149•fortran77•6h ago

Comments

fortran77•6h ago
https://archive.ph/T5ZmS
Terr_•4h ago
> Eyes Up provides a way for users to record and upload footage of abusive law-enforcement activity, building an archive of potential evidence. [...] Then, on October 3rd, Mark received a notice that Apple was removing the app from its store on the grounds that it may “harm a targeted individual or group.”

In other words, [0] somebody in Apple declared that ICE agents, on duty, operating in public, executing federally-authorized violence, have somehow qualified as a "targeted group" just like transgender people.

> Pressure on the tech platforms seemed to come from the Trump Administration; after a deadly shooting at an ICE field office in Dallas in late September, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said in a statement to Fox News Digital that ICEBlock “put ICE agents at risk just for doing their jobs.”

It makes for an extra-ridiculous backdrop, since absolutely nobody needed any kind of app to determine that ICE agents will be present at... the big building near the highway with a huge concrete sign on the lawn proclaiming "US Immigration and Custom Enforcement."

... I mean, what're the odds?

> Like other forms of self expression, digital-communication technology has become dangerously circumscribed under Trump; only the tools that exist independent of Big Tech seem like safe bets for dissent.

As these platforms start banning software written by private individuals, we'll have to see what kind of incident tracker some Democrats have promised to arrange. [1] I would expect the niche to be long-term documentation like the banned Eyes Up app, rather than real-time notification of, er, road conditions.

Either way, it highlights a different problem with Apple and Google working to prohibit us (users) from freely installing software we onto hardware we own.

___________

[0] https://www.techdirt.com/2025/10/10/apple-decides-ice-agents...

[1] https://gizmodo.com/democrats-will-launch-a-master-ice-track...

yupyupyups•3h ago
Allowing users to sIdEloAde apps will compromise user security and privacy. Furthermore, Apple has always stood in solidarity with marginalized people and will continue to do so.

/s

noduerme•3h ago
>> only the tools that exist independent of Big Tech seem like safe bets for dissent

The problem is that those tools will never be easy for the general public to use, and the big data problem requires the genpop to be onboard. I honestly don't see a good way out of this. At a certain point in the evolution of any authoritarian state, those apps or devices which run them will just be banned and punishable to possess. In America, we're just running up against the outskirts of what hard power can do to silence and intimidate people.

deaux•1h ago
I don't really get why these at least don't offer both "native" app and web. The people making these apps 1. surely understand that this was going to happen 2. are making them as fast as possible using hybrid frameworks (which is 100% the correct thing to do in this situation) 3. are easily capable of hosting them as a web app as well.

I don't want to be too harsh on people who made these apps but I am pretty peeved. They completely wasted the opportunity as now any new apps they'll get banned before they get onto the stores. I think all of us on HN could've told them this was inevitable ages ago and especially since they're engaged enough to be making these apps surely they knew themselves. If they from day 1 also hosted it as a webapp (as an alternative), that would be the immediate migration path. Heck, they could've advertised/linked it in the app itself. This is allowed and doesn't get one blocked from the stores unless there's payment options involved which is explicitly not the case here.

lostlogin•3h ago
> In other words, [0] somebody in Apple declared that ICE agents, on duty, operating in public, executing federally-authorized violence, have somehow qualified as a "targeted group" just like transgender people.

Comparing ICE agents to transgender people might be the most inflammatory thing you could say to them or their masters.

SurceBeats•4h ago
The ICEBlock removal is absurd when you consider Waze has been warning drivers about police locations for... Years? The only difference is which government agency is being monitored. This sets a dangerous precedent for selective enforcement of ToS really
RajT88•4h ago
> This sets a dangerous precedent

Quite a lot of things this statement applies to lately.

lovich•3h ago
> This sets a dangerous precedent for selective enforcement of ToS really

It’s only a dangerous precedent if you believe your opponents will ever gain power. If you believe your political opponents will never have power again, then who cares about precedent?

pigeons•3h ago
Well, still dangerous for the people its used against.
lostlogin•3h ago
Missing this point is alarming.
hsbauauvhabzb•56m ago
It’s possible loveich does not morally agree with their own post, but are providing it as an opposing view.
degamad•2h ago
> if you believe your opponents will ever gain power.

Or are already in power.

lostlogin•3h ago
> This sets a dangerous precedent

This is a dangerous president.

dragonwriter•3h ago
Both that removal and Google's removal of other ICE tracking apps on the basis that a government paramilitary enforcement force (much less one involved in executing an ethnic cleansing) constituted a “vulnerable group” goes beyond “dangerous precedent”, a description which implies that an act is not harmful in itself but only in what it may normalize down the road.
charcircuit•2h ago
I think they are different in that:

1. People are not harassing traffic enforcement, like they are harassing immigration enforcement.

2. Waze's information incentivizes people to follow traffic laws more deligently than they would which results in safer driving conditions for other people driving. ICEBlock did not have the benefit of making people follow immigration law better, or turn themselves in faster.

throwawayqqq11•28m ago
Avoiding traffic controls is no solution to reckless driving. Like surveilance cameras, they only move the crime elsewhere.

What you need is a gapless panopticon so that every suspect feels like being at the verge of getting caught, to enforce eg. traffic laws.

ICE does not target criminal behavior though. They literally disappear people based on appearance and any criminal record. Such a panopticon is an entirely different beast.

stinkbeetle•2h ago
What an astounding and completely unforeseeable surprise, the old "they're a private company, they can do what they want [and if they are pressured by the government through back-channels and veiled threats, that's fine too]" is coming back around. Never thought that would happen ever.
deaux•1h ago
> This sets a dangerous precedent for selective enforcement of ToS really

This is selective enforcement of ToS?

It's like saying "pardoning a human trafficker sets a dangerous precedent for pardoning human traffickers".

ab5tract•58m ago
Yes, this is what we do say when human traffickers are pardoned.
_ZeD_•3h ago
[flagged]
deepsun•2h ago
As a person from an authoritarian country, I should say that firearms mean much less than coordination. Organized group of 100 with no guns is stronger than 10000 armed but poorly coordinated people.

In other words, a "well regulated Militia" in the Second Amendment is more important than "bear arms".

But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason.

themafia•2h ago
> Organized group of 100 with no guns is stronger than 10000 armed but poorly coordinated people.

What examples are you drawing from when making this conclusion?

> In other words, a "well regulated Militia" in the Second Amendment is more important than "bear arms".

Originally standing armies were not allowed. Each state was expected to perform it's own defense. The governor could create and disband a militia to defend the state. It was expected they would appear with their own arms.

> But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason.

Subservient to what power?

coderatlarge•1h ago
> The governor could create and disband a militia to defend the state.

so you’re saying a governor could declare their state to be under attack and organize a militia maybe even using state funds?

tombert•2h ago
> But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason.

The line between "private militia" and "terrorism" isn't very well defined. If the people are unsuccessful, they will be labeled as terrorists and potentially put to death. Most people don't want to be executed, and as far as I am aware there's only been one successful violent insurrection in the US [1], so the odds are very much not in your favor.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_massacre#Aftermath

jdappletini•2h ago
[flagged]
tomhow•1h ago
Please don't fulminate or post inflammatory rhetoric like this on HN. And we don't need to use Grawlix like " bl@(k" here, it's ugly and unnecessary; we can use complete words here, no matter what they are.
0xDEAFBEAD•2h ago
Just because the government is enforcing laws you don't like does not make it oppression. Imagine if everyone started using firearms in response to laws they considered oppressive, e.g. business owners who found regulation oppressive might say "come and enforce it". You would probably refer to this as "undermining democracy" if it was a law that you actually agreed with.
Eextra953•1h ago
Using firearms against the state never works. However, the oppression isn't in the enforcement of laws it is in how those laws are being enforced, selectively, against brown and black people. Also, something being a law doesn't make it right or just. For examples of this just look at slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights, etc at a certain point in time all of those things were against the law but people agonized, organized and resisted enough to change the law. By your logic those groups weren't oppressed since the law allowed for their oppression.
hvb2•21m ago
I think if you were to look at how often a government is rebuffed by the courts, that's a pretty good indicator of how much they're trying to bend the rules or outright ignore them.

Also, "come and enforce it" is not undermining democracy. A law is only a piece of paper until a court upholds it. Even the federal government can write whatever it wants, if it's then ruled unconstitutional that's the end of that.

The problem going on right now is that so much is being broken that the already slow court system just cannot keep up.

coderatlarge•3h ago
so if i build an app that enables endusers to upload videos from their phones to youtube and then offers a labeling system so that ice-related (or other) activities can be interlinked and searched/discovered/traversed i am suddenly engaging in proscribed software development? how far down does this slope go???
acuozzo•3h ago
https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

This was written re: IP law, but applies to your comment as well.

coderatlarge•1h ago
thanks for sharing! someone had explained to me the concept of “color of money” in payment systems years back and this matches up well.
mlinhares•3h ago
it goes as far as the king or his loyal enablers think it needs to go. the slope is very short, actually, because the moment you do that you'll have a target on your back and might receive a visit from a federal law enforcement agency.
coderatlarge•2h ago
to go further: let’s say i don’t even define a purpose for the app but just leave it open to users to define their metadata labeling scheme and all the app does is index the videos labeled in a common way. perhaps endusers agree on redit or on some wiki how they will label posts. the app just traverses the labeling scheme and provides some basic viewing and searching locally; without a server involved beyond youtube. i’m just wondering whether this new situation essentially criminalizes metadata.
trillic•1h ago
criminalization of aggregation
coderatlarge•1h ago
is there some point of app abstraction where i can claim section 230 protection?
trillic•1h ago
When users create the lists and you don’t moderate them (outside of illegal content and “profanity”. But “profanity” is similar to the slippery slope of a “targeted group”.
coderatlarge•1h ago
ok so , in theory, “Mark” (the author of the original app in question in the original post) could change some of the verbiage around his app and resubmit claiming 230?
heavyset_go•52m ago
S230 allows for any amount of moderation. Providers of interactive computer services are not liable for user-uploaded content.
mathgorges•2h ago
The code for Eyes Up seems to be public [0](although there’s no license, so presumably is copyrighted).

I bet that one could refactor it into a PWA.

[0]: https://github.com/explorealways/eyes-up

hsbauauvhabzb•55m ago
I’m going to guess if you opened a ticket the writer would provide it as a permissive licence.
immigrationwarn•2h ago
I have been warning those around me that it's immigrants today and them tomorrow. I don't think the majority of the population grasps how bad things are about to get. Trump has built ICE/CBP into the most well funded law enforcement agency in the US, with a budget exceeding that of some countries militaries. They are broadly loyal only to him. They are building their surveillance and intelligence capabilities and honing them on immigrants. Tomorrow it will surveillance and arrest of politicians (1), leftist political groups, and anyone else critical of Trump. The worst part is all of this will be supported by his followers who are eager for any opportunity to own the libs. As an American I weep at the end of our republic and our slide into authoritarianism. America couldn't survive the invention of social media and the post-9/11 fear.

1) https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/doj-indi...

vtail•1h ago
> Tomorrow it will surveillance[sic] and arrest of politicians

And the example you linked to support this non-sequitur is of a person indicted for obstructing government law enforcement?

I think Biden administration's spying on US Senators[1] creates a much more dangerous precedent.

[1] https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/biden-fb...

_DeadFred_•1h ago
Sure. But they are both bad. Only one is going on today so we can discuss your point in a different discussion.
whatshisface•1h ago
That guy's gone...
LodeOfCode•48m ago
"Spying"

>The FBI in 2023 sought and obtained data about the senators’ phone use from January 4 through January 7, 2021. That data shows when and to whom a call is made, as well as the duration and general location data of the call. The data does not include the content of the call.

dialup_sounds•18m ago
FYI, that investigation also resulted in an indictment—conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding; obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding; and conspiracy against rights.
floundy•11m ago
>account created 2 hours ago
realusername•8m ago
I wouldn't critisize the ICE on my main account either if I were American.

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