I am thinking of authoritarian countries that issue modern e-passports but do not allow free elections. Can activists organize an election for all citizens of that country in some online form, asking the voters to scan their passports using their phones, so that
- only legitimate citizens (who have passports) can vote - votes remain anonymous - everybody can vote only once - the whole election can be audited
Those tend to not issue passports (of any kind) to many citizens.
Then there's access. In America for example only half the adults in the country even have a passport, and I suspect that skews quite heavily towards one demographic. Do you think that India, Nigeria, or Russia have more equitable access?
And even if they did, what stops the state issuing extra fake passports to citizens they want to vote.
of course then there's key elements of a free election, freedom of access to the ballot paper, freedom to campaign the same as others, freedom from imprisonment because you are running against the incumbent leader, having each vote being worth the same. Many countries prevent people in jail from voting, or even people who used to be in jail. Many countries give more power to one constituency than another, almost all have some level of unequal access to campaigning.
It's not a "Free election" or "no election".
The actual casting of the vote is only part of the story.
Vitalik has a great blog post about blockchain voting.
https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2021/05/25/voting2.html
You probably wouldn't want to use the cryptography on the passports themselves to implement the voting system. You probably want to use one of the general purpose zkSTARKs or multi-party-computation systems.
>You probably wouldn't want to use the cryptography on the passports themselves to implement the voting system. You probably want to use one of the general purpose zkSTARKs or multi-party-computation systems.
I'm also assuming here that the govt is signing all the passport keys, cause idk how else that would work.
The fact that this is even possible is deeply un-intuitive as it requires some of the most sophisticated cryptography. That's probably the greatest barrier to adoption. When people think of electronic voting, they think about trusting a company to make machines that operate on plaintext, and require humans to guard access to the machines. They aren't thinking about systems that are provably correct, where it is more likely for an asteroid to wipe out the country conducting the election than for the election results to be incorrect.
For the details and tradeoffs, I highly recommend Vitalik's blog.
You are trying to solve a political problem with a technological solution.
1. Many authoritarian countries don't allow freedom of travel (i.e. it is not easy to get a passport)
2. If they don't care free election, what's stopping them issuing more passport just for voting?
3. What's stopping them confiscating or revoking your passport?
It’s impressive that something so small carries so many trust anchors. I’m wondering how they will manage to upgrade them - for future algorithms without breaking compatibility.
> I’m wondering how they will manage to upgrade them - for future algorithms without breaking compatibility.
Just like all other smartcard systems: Very, very slowly. Credit and debit payment cards with a smartcard (EMV) chip have similar issues – even small patches take multiple years due to the relatively long average card validity.
I talked to WA DOL Privacy Officer about it a couple years ago, and found that the tech platform had remained unchanged. WA maintains the printed material and DHS maintains the RFID package which is over 20 years old now .
Think of other 20 year old tech and how safe you feel having that in your wallet.
https://www.arijuels.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/KJKB09.p...
Edit: clarified Enhanced ID because there are differences in the program
This means that any second party with access to your passport can prove to any (unaffiliated/untrusted) third party that they had access to your passport and can even include something like a cryptographic timestamp to prove that they did so at a given point in time.
There were even some experimental schemes explicitly making use of ICAO biometric passports as a "proof of personhood", as far as I remember, but given that the ICAO scheme does not have any notion of document holder consent (e.g. via a PIN or other means of authentication), there are also significant privacy and security problems.
CA intentionally avoids all of that, since the risk of entities using ICAO passports as unintentional and insecure digital signature tokens was apparently deemed too high.
mothballed•3h ago
axus•3h ago
On the topic of the article, every hotel outside the US I've used has asked for my passport; I didn't know that a copy of the details exposed weaknesses on the electronic side.
xhkkffbf•3h ago
mistrial9•3h ago
iso1631•3h ago
> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Which is functionally the same as
> slavery or involuntary servitude, as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Phemist•3h ago
Considering the Date of Birth and Date of Expiry are necessarily limited in entropy, one should take care in protecting their Document Number as it is the greatest source of entropy for the derived "password key".
iso1631•3h ago
Every hotel in the US and any other country has asked for my passport (and credit card), but I'm not American.
The textual information on the page of my passport is basically public knowledge, like a phone number or an american social security number. It's rare that a hotel takes the passport out of sight (and potentially scan the chip), but a photocopy is fairly frequent.
wat10000•3h ago
ghaff•3h ago
As a US resident, I have often been asked for a drivers license in the US and it was actually an issue at one point when I had lost it though I was able to work around with some difficulty. I suspect the details were some combination of local/state/and hotel policy.
stackskipton•2h ago
I have had issues with US hotels accept US passports and fought with one over it.
ghaff•2h ago
Generally speaking, hotels in the US do seem to want government ID. Don't really know the requirement in general. This was a fairly low-rent chain that I was only using because last minute. I expect if it had been one of my major loyalty chains, a manager would have fixed things pretty quickly.
ADDED: Normally I travel with a passport as well but, as I say, this was a last moment short trip so I didn't throw in all my travel pouches.
alphazard•3h ago
Danjoe4•3h ago
xhkkffbf•3h ago
iso1631•3h ago
I'm certain that it varies even more between American states. Presumably the social "safety net" assistance in California is different to that in Montana. In Alaska people get free money.
Entitlement tends to be based on where you live
z2•3h ago
drsim•3h ago
In reality though, 8 billion people hold a wide spectrum of beliefs. I would not want to live in a society with low taxation and low welfare for example. How can I live side-by-side with those that do? Of course, we all have limited choice to move if our society does not match our beliefs.
lazide•3h ago
Which may seem like hypothetical questions to the young or the inexperienced, but are very real concerns hidden behind a veil of generally maintained civility in most of modern society.
morshu9001•2h ago
15155•3h ago
Who should be allowed to participate in the decision-making process that allocates these finite resources?
ceejayoz•3h ago
15155•3h ago
Vacuuming the (imaginary - we're using feelings here, let's not split hairs on things like 'markets') accounts of every billionaire and redistributing these funds evenly amounts to singular thousands of dollars to just citizens.
The overwhelming majority of actual taxpaying citizens don't pay enough tax to cover their per-capita share of government spending, is there some factual evidence to suggest that unlimited economic migrants would? (or could?)
ceejayoz•2h ago
We certainly can't give everyone a Bezos yacht. But we can probably have a little less famine, as a treat.
gruez•2h ago
Surely it's cheaper to do that via foreign aid in whatever country that's experiencing famine, where the cost of living is lower?
ceejayoz•2h ago
15155•2h ago
ceejayoz•2h ago
Same deal with "what about the homeless veterans?!" or "it's mental health, not guns!" from people whose politics boil down to "fuck them, too".
15155•2h ago
Correct. We should shore up our own domestic finances and prosperity before helping the rest of the world.
We do not automatically incur a debt every time someone in a foreign country gets pregnant.
> "it's mental health, not guns!"
I wonder why Switzerland has no issue.
ceejayoz•1h ago
Then be honest and just say "fuck the poors", not a fake desire for doing it a different way that you hope will go unquestioned.
> I wonder why Switzerland has no issue.
27.6 guns per 100 residents, versus 120 in the US. Firearms registries, acquisition permits, and quite a few controls over ammo acquisition. Plus mandatory universal training via conscription.
15155•2h ago
Yes, and the United States cannot shoulder the burden of the entirety of the world's economic migrants.
Where is this magical, commensurate influx of licensed doctors coming from to deal with the influx of unlimited economic migrants (who can't cover their own tax expenses?)
We're not talking about yachts: we're talking about healthcare and food. Take all the yachts away, force Bezos to liquidate everything (and every other billionaire): neither the income nor the fixed assets are enough to cover healthcare for the population we already have, much less a gargantuan, unproductive group of new arrivals.
ceejayoz•2h ago
gruez•2h ago
Exactly. Evidence actually points in the opposite direction:
https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-e...
https://www.economist.com/content-assets/images/20250315_FNC...
15155•2h ago
> Evidence actually points in the opposite direction:
I was speaking about the United States: can you find a study that somehow documents illegal immigrant (by definition: undocumented) persons' productivity?
Folks brought over on legal immigration visas likely do make more money (and contribute more) than the average American: that's why we have these programs for 'exceptional' individuals. Nobody is going through the effort (nor can they afford the costs) of obtaining lawful visas for construction labor or meat processing staff.
gruez•2h ago
wat10000•1h ago
I agree with your overall point, seizing all the billionaires' wealth and redistributing it doesn't solve money woes (there are other reasons to do it), but they amount they do have is getting strikingly high.
In any case, money is accounting, not ability. The important question is: do we have the resources and skilled people needed for it? If not, then all the money in the world won't make it work. If so, then it can be done if people want it badly enough.
wat10000•3h ago
foofoo12•3h ago
blackcatsec•2h ago
This is a difficult concept for people to understand because they look at their paychecks and go "I'm not deriving so much wealth!" well yeah. A huge, large chunk of your wealth is being extracted for capitalism. And in manners that will be very difficult for you to understand.
I'll try to explain it, though, for the audience that peruses these forums. You're a software developer.
You work for a public B2B software company. Your wealth is being extracted to: Pay for those company pizza parties, pay for the office you work in, pay in to the healthcare system that "your company is paying for" that isn't directly part of the premium you see on open enrollment, paying for the company holiday parties, paying into everyone's various insurance plans to reduce the out-of-pocket costs for everyone in those insurance plans (outside of your company, of course), paying for the CEO's multi-million dollar paycheck, paying for the bonuses of all of the management, paying for shareholder value and dividends, paying for the taxes your company pays, paying for the taxes you pay.
If your existence at your job didn't pay for those things, most companies will tend to lay you off.
And this goes for pretty much the vast majority of workers in the vast majority of jobs.
So saying that more immigrants somehow puts a strain on the system is just by definition incorrect, even if a percentage of those immigrants don't generate the same level of value you do as an individual. Do you think every person in your organization generates the same relative value? Of course not. In most businesses in America, does the janitor generate the same wealth as the CEO?
To be fair, there is a snarky comment to be made there about CEOs--but the objective reality is probably not. But the janitor is still generating some wealth by ensuring a safe, healthy, and comfortable workplace for the employees. Does that mean the janitor is not entitled to income? to healthcare? to benefits? to company holiday parties? to company pizza parties?
Just convert this into a much larger scale of the entirety of a country's population--and well, the answer is that most populations have enough free money floating around somewhere to provide essential services to everyone: education, food, safety and security, health, and likely even housing, electricity, and pretty much any other public service we could provide.
And this scales as a population grows.
blackcatsec•2h ago
There are a lot of reasons for this, but the short answer is that health, education, and enough individual wealth to explore figuring out ways to generate new revenue streams is important. Authoritarian countries are by nature not able to do this due to limits of their authoritarian nature, not necessarily limits of their population numbers.
It's all intertwined :)
IncreasePosts•2h ago
If so, why? Aren't they all just people?
morshu9001•2h ago