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Unexpected things that are people

https://bengoldhaber.substack.com/p/unexpected-things-that-are-people
71•lindowe•1h ago

Comments

viciousvoxel•25m ago
The Whanganui river is in fact only the second of three geological features to have been granted personhood in NZ, the others being Te Urewera and Taranaki Mounga (mountain).
metada5e•25m ago
I recommend reading the book 'For Profit' for deeper knowledge on this topic - the book covers the origin of corporations and the ideas lying behind legal personhood. It sounds like a dry read but it is surprisingly well written and as much about history as about law. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60568507-for-profit

Criminal and Civil liability are the two topics to focus on - you will find that non-human entities have very limited categories of crimes that apply to them. This is a key topic in the emergence of 'seemingly conscious' or 'seemingly unitary' AGI compute entities.

Also worth noting that Common Law tends to be the primary mode of law globally, even in counties that are nominally Code Napoleon (aka Civil Law) countries.

eatonphil•15m ago
Looks interesting, thank you!
chemotaxis•23m ago
Wouldn't personal property in the US fall under the same criteria, in the sense that the government can sue the property itself (civil forfeiture)?

But I think the boring answer here is that we sometimes need legal abstractions. If they don't exist, Microsoft is no longer a distinct entity; it's 200,000 people who for some reason talk to each other, and you can't really audit their finances, punish them collectively, or set any ground rules that apply specifically to their joint activities.

This obviously has negative externalities, because while a corporation is easy to fine, it's hard to put in prison... but trying to approach it differently would be about as fun as modeling a CPU as a bunch of transistors.

xg15•5m ago
I think there is a difference between having some sort of legal entity to classify organized groups as - and that legal entity being equivalent of a person.
Barbing•23m ago
>In 2017 the New Zealand Parliament passed the Te Awa Tupua (Whanganui River Claims Settlement) Act, which granted the Whanganui river a ‘legal personality’ and endowed it with “all the corresponding rights, duties, and liabilities of a legal person”.

Unexpected indeed, interesting!

leeoniya•12m ago
i wonder how a river would be held liable for propery damage, or wrongful death
robot-wrangler•21m ago
Thought provoking. Most people who (quite reasonably) hate corporate personhood would probably have a knee-jerk reaction that personhood for a river can/should be normalized. The thing with temples stems ultimately from fairly practical matters if they hold such treasure, but it's a magnet for strife, and actually kind of surprising that in the case-study mentioned they resisted the opportunity to justify abuse of power. What is a lawyer really but a kind of priest or magician, changing material reality with obscure incantations of dubious origin?

Historically and practically speaking, I get the impression that the boat stuff seems the least controversial and makes the most sense. Incoherent to want to sue a river for flooding, but if a boat crashes into your house for example, then you'd like to be able to at least seize the boat without enduring the back-and-forth deflection between owners and operators.

jstanley•19m ago
> Most people who (quite reasonably) hate corporate personhood would probably have a knee-jerk reaction that personhood for a river can/should be normalized.

I would have thought that people who hate the idea of corporate personhood would also hate the idea of any other kind of non-person personhood.

dudeinjapan•13m ago
Part of having personhood is that one’s ideas don’t have to have any logical or consistent basis.
tyre•16m ago
> Most people who (quite reasonably) hate corporate personhood would probably have a knee-jerk reaction that personhood for a river can/should be normalized.

Why do you think this would be the case? I agree with the former but not the latter.

robot-wrangler•4m ago
Well I think one can justify it emotionally or logically. People identifying as anti-corporate are probably more likely to align as pro-nature. Emotionally, non-person-personhood isn't good or bad intrinsically, it just depends if we approve of the area where the doctrine's applied.

The more logical reason is that if corporate personhood sucks and we have it anyway, then like it or not, now we need to extend it elsewhere just to level the playing field. If anti-environmental interests can hide behind it as a justification that makes their fight easier then let the environmental interests do the same thing.

retrac•4m ago
In my country at least, the municipal government and power company are legal persons -- they are corporations set up for purposes like maintaining the libraries and providing power. In those cases, they are non-profit corporations and as a resident, I'm a stakeholder.

This isn't usually what people are objecting to when they object to corporate personhood. Their objection is to treating them like natural persons. The article makes that distinction at the end with the example of Lord Rama, who is not a natural person legally, and so doesn't have constitutional rights.

In the United States in particular the courts have held that the collective group speech of a corporation is protected as 1st amendment speech, because all the individual members have free speech rights as natural persons. I think this is a basic error. (To use the Indian deity personhood analogy: all of Rama's devotees are natural persons, therefore if you censor Rama, you censor his followers, who are natural persons and so have free speech. Non sequitur.)

atoav•4m ago
[delayed]
altruios•3m ago
> Most people who (quite reasonably) hate corporate personhood would probably have a knee-jerk reaction that personhood for a river can/should be normalized.

Three replies now, all saying that this is nonsense (including this one). I would venture to say it's the other way around: if you are okay with a river having 'personhood' then that logically leads to being okay with a group of people having 'personhood'.

Elephants, on the other hand, have a better case for 'personhood' than a river. An elephant has autonomy, is thinking, can feel pain, has emotions... a river has none of these things, nor does a corporation (even if the parts {humans} consisting of a corporation do).

AnimalMuppet•19m ago
The tree that owns itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_That_Owns_Itself
DeathArrow•17m ago
In Romania, a country with Roman Law, the companies are "juridical persons", while the people are "physical persons".

The two types of persons do not have the same rights and obligations and they can not commit the same crimes.

strbean•13m ago
> Similar to nomads, vagabonds, and college students on extended study abroad,

But not to be conflated with rovers or wanderers!

tyre•12m ago
Philosopher Martha Nussbaum filed an amicus brief supporting Happy the elephant’s rights as a legal person. She has a wonderful essay about this and personhood more broadly[0]

It seems like there are judges in the US who are sympathetic to the argument that elephants are clearly persons with consciousness, desires, suffering, etc. but that the ramifications of declaring them as such would be too chaotic.

One day.

[0]: https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2022/03/10/what-we-owe-our-...

Animats•4m ago
This article is apparently a spinoff of an AI personhood project.[1]

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2510.26396

zkmon•3m ago
>> It’s widely known that Corporations are People

Really? Businesses can be legal entities, not people. Just like how a nation can be for people, but it is more than people themselves.

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