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Wealthy foreigners 'paid for chance to shoot civilians in Sarajevo'

https://www.thetimes.com/world/europe/article/wealthy-foreigners-paid-for-chance-to-shoot-civilians-in-sarajevo-zrljbb27z
90•mhb•2mo ago
https://archive.is/i37JU

Comments

mensetmanusman•2mo ago
After the mass graves hoax in Canada, it’s hard to take these stories designed for outrage and ad revenue seriously without more evidence than what is being presented.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/no-evidence-of-ma...

lifestyleguru•2mo ago
Imagine you can shoot at people, no consequences. Travel somewhere, pay a fee, shoot, then come back to your cozy reality.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/09/the-gaza-famil...

brohee•2mo ago
There seem to be clear admission of war crime, that looks like prime indictment material by the ICC, which could make traveling not so cosy in the future.
Loughla•2mo ago
Daniel Raab can never come back to the United States. And to be honest, I say good, he can stay away.

Ideology is one thing, but he is enjoying killing civilians, knowing they're civilians. Awful.

mykowebhn•2mo ago
Do you have another less biased source?

From Wikipedia:

> The Fraser Institute is a conservative Canadian public policy think tank registered as a charity.

This is the first time I am hearing about the mass graves being a hoax.

gruez•2mo ago
Not the OP, but

>As of April 2025, no bodies have been exhumed from the suspected gravesites, largely due to a lack of community consensus on whether to investigate detected anomalies at the risk of disturbing burials.[9] As of January 2024, at least three official excavations had been performed with no bodies discovered, though at least one excavation only investigated a portion of the reported ground anomalies at that site.[10][11][12] Disputes regarding the conclusiveness of the evidence has helped spawn a movement of denialism about the existence of some or all residential school burial sites.[9][13][14] Indigenous groups and academics have dismissed claims of a "mass grave hoax", saying that claimed discoveries of mass graves were present in a minority of stories published by mainstream media and that there had been public misinterpretation of what had actually been announced in 2021.[15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc...

It sounds like the "mass" part of the "mass graves" is disputed, and there's motte-and-bailey on both sides (eg. "you must think nobody/bazillion died in residential schools") muddying the dispute.

Steven420•2mo ago
Only four supposed mass graves have been investigated and all four found no bodies. There is no credible evidence that says there are mass graves
pcthrowaway•2mo ago
It wasn't exactly a "hoax" though, more like sensationalized reporting. Like "so-and-so identified a site where we believe there could be bodies buried" turned into "mass grave uncovered"

Some potential burial sites were investigated, no bodies were found. Unmarked graves in association with residential schools certainly have been found in Canada, and since proving a negative in regards to these claims is untenable, the media is generally reluctant to say "see, there were no mass graves after all"

Steven420•2mo ago
Where have unmarked residential school graves been found? Also investigating other supposed grave sites have been disallowed by their respective tribes
pcthrowaway•2mo ago
Here's one from Saskatchewan for example: https://web.archive.org/web/20170408082324/http://www.sicc.s...
pyuser583•2mo ago
How do you feel about Quillette? https://quillette.com/2025/02/27/four-years-zero-graves-now-...
gruez•2mo ago
>[Quillette] has been described as libertarian-leaning;[2][3][4] the Columbia Journalism Review called Quillette "the right wing's highly influential answer to Slate",[5] and it has been criticized as an "anti-PC soapbox"[6] and for being "reflexively contrarian".[7]

People who were skeptical at The Fraser Institute are probably also skeptical of Quillette

evanjrowley•2mo ago
If you seek it out, you will video footage of pogroms from that conflict.

Not the exact circumstances as described in the article, but killings were very real.

ignoramous•2mo ago
> fraserinstitute.org/commentary/no-evidence-of-ma...

You've a gripe with outrage and yet... I mean, any think tank can write anything they think and post it to the interwebs. Here's the other side's perspective:

  Since the confirmation of community knowledge of suspected unmarked graves in Kamloops, First Nations across Canada have located evidence of the remains of more than 2,300 children in suspected unmarked graves at or near former residential schools and Indian hospitals, according to the report.

  But the unauthorized visits to the site are the work of a "core group" of Canadians who continue to deny, defend or minimize the physical, sexual, psychological and emotional abuse inflicted on Indigenous children in the Indian Residential School System "despite the indisputable evidence of survivors and their families," Murray said at a Friday news conference. Denialism and disrespect exacerbate the pain and trauma of survivors and community members trying to grieve and search the grave sites. "Denialism is violence. Denialism is calculated. Denialism is harmful. Denialism is hate," Murray said.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/denialists-t...
smithoc•2mo ago
So there is no actual evidence, and you're committing a hate crime if you ask to see evidence or point out that there's no evidence.

If a white person has a drunk uncle or crazy aunt tell a wild conspiracy theory at a family gathering, people dismiss them as a kook. But if an indigenous person does the same thing, it's supposed to be treated as sacred cultural knowledge being passed down?

I have an uncle who swears there are thousands of people who've been killed by Bill and Hillary Clinton. He has lists and websites and links to obituaries about deaths "deemed suicides" or "not investigated" or "unsolved". I don't think that my skepticism about his claims is violence or hate.

ignoramous•2mo ago
> I don't think that my skepticism about his claims is violence or hate.

You realise the investigations are on-going after the initial community-led assessments done with remote sensing tech like GPRs (ground penetrating radars)? This is where this denialism takes an ugly turn.

> If a white person has a drunk uncle or crazy aunt tell a wild conspiracy theory at a family gathering, people dismiss them as a kook.

I mean, new Holocaust mass graves are still being discovered as institutions keep their investigations up using GPRs! You deny those graves, too? Sure Holocaust denialism is filled with "kooks" unto itself, but surely, we're not those kooks? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327194663_Holocaust...

jvdvegt•2mo ago
https://archive.is/i37JU
cm2012•2mo ago
There were many war crimes in Sarajevo, but this one is probably fake. The only evidence for this is some shady testimonies, and it was not backed up in post war testimony of soldiers, flight logs, etc., even though many other war crimes were.
ls612•2mo ago
An extortion/blackmail racket then?
hansmayer•2mo ago
Maybe get yourself acquainted with a topic before you throw up something like this. For reference here is a video of renowned russian poet Eduard Limonow, shooting at Sarajevo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkjPZvz27mg . I guess this video and the "little" fact that the Italian state prosecutor would not just open an investigation based on some hear/say should make it a bit more believable, shouldn't it?
brohee•2mo ago
Limonov was here for ideological reasons. All sides had foreigners in their ranks of various motivations, from the mercenary and the adventurer to the strongly ideologically motivated. What is missing is evidence of people coming there for pure entertainment and paying for the privilege...
hansmayer•2mo ago
Well, that's why the Italians are conducting the investigation, isn't it? No-one claimed it was proved.
yread•2mo ago
Interesting video. "Poet" shooting at a city with another "poet" Karadzic. Curious that they speak English, wasn't Russian taught at schools in Yugoslavia? And Karadzic's command post being a cable car.
hansmayer•2mo ago
Russian was taught mainly in the in Warsaw Pact countries. Yugoslavia was never in the Warsaw Pact.
ChrisArchitect•2mo ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45893535
sys32768•2mo ago
And the evidence is...a claim by an Italian writer who heard it from a former Bosnian intel officer who heard it from...

But this does remind me of that excellent docu-series The Line about members of a Navy SEAL platoon who accused their chief of war crimes.

https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-line/umc.cmc.4u53f7zokr7g40...

causal•2mo ago
Wouldn't be the first time an Italian prosecutor went on a witch hunt based on wild conspiracy theories: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/monster-of-florence-amanda-knox...
hansmayer•2mo ago
I mean serb snipers were already shooting the civilians en masse in Sarajevo. Its not a huge leap from that to lending the opportunity to a few depraved rich idiots. The Epstein files absolutely show you how depraved some rich folks are...
smallstepforman•2mo ago
There were snipers on all sides doing immoral things. The war in Sarajevo started when a Serbian wedding was shot up in April 1992, causing the Serbs to panic and want to secede from Bosnia & Herzegovina. Then you end up with "rights for this ethnic group but not the other", and a civil war breaks out with geopolitical meddling from foreign wanna-be powers.
hansmayer•2mo ago
No please, stop puking this bullshit...if you believe that, you also believe Princip's assasination of Duke Ferdinand was the underlying cause of WW1 (and not the tensions among the great colonial powers of the time).
gruez•2mo ago
Doesn't this logic just cause a cascade? eg. "we all know group X is depraved, so it wouldn't surprise me that they did something even more depraved, which lends further evidence for them being depraved!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_cascade

dragonwriter•2mo ago
I think you mean “depraved” here, not “deprived”.
gruez•2mo ago
thanks, edited.
113•2mo ago
Not really? That isn't the argument they were making.
kstenerud•2mo ago
No, the evidence is an Italian writer who did years of research, including a Bosnian former intelligence officer as a key source. He also uncovered that Bosnian intelligence warned the Italian secret service that this was happening.

There are also specific individuals whose details have been sent to SISMI for investigation.

gruez•2mo ago
>No, the evidence is an Italian writer who did years of research, including a Bosnian former intelligence officer as a key source

I can't read the article, but none of this really contradicts OP's point, which is that all of this hinges on hearsay. Is there any evidence presented that isn't hearsay?

josefritzishere•2mo ago
Richard Connell wrote the short story "The Most Dangerous Game" on this topic. That was 100 years ago and now it's real.
mellosouls•2mo ago
Plenty of non paywall links covering this story, eg:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3epygq5272o

Italy investigates claims of tourists paying to shoot civilians in Bosnia in 1990s

egorfine•2mo ago
I have personally known an individual here in Ukraine who wanted to go for a human safari in Eastern Ukraine in the heyday of the previous war with russia, closer to 2014.

All it takes is a mix of morbid curiosity, a bit of boredom, lots of money and a prominent antisocial personality disorder.

Zealotux•2mo ago
And psychopathy.
egorfine•2mo ago
Psychopathy is the previous term for antisocial personality disorder.
f1shy•2mo ago
I absolutely understand the interest and engagement of the HN community. But how is this news for a hacker?

I think this is mainly a political topic, with no relation to science or technology. Or did I miss something?

I flagged it. The discussion is interesting, but I do bot enjoy it in HN. Or at the very least is certainly not what I come to HN for.

JohnMakin•2mo ago
The world does not exist and cater to your whims and likes/dislikes
f1shy•2mo ago
That does not answer the question: how is that relevant in this forum?

I do not want the world to exist to any whim. I just made a remark, with a personal opinion. Sorry to see, such is not welcome here, but mere political news which have absolutely nothing to do with hackers, computers, technology or science are very well received.

And BTW, I was bot so wrong, it got flagged. So there is that for your whim.

hansmayer•2mo ago
If there is a suspicion of such a high crime, that SHOULD BE relevant in any forum. It is not simply a matter of being or not being interested in the latest LLM fads or sqlite optimisations or whatever. It is what is called a universally relevant topic. You know, rich people hunting down a besieged population?
raffael_de•2mo ago
I second your point 100%. It's interesting news but shouldn't be here. It's eroding what makes this outlet interesting by diluting its essence.
hansmayer•2mo ago
HackerNews : "News that matter". Not "news for autistic nerds".
f1shy•2mo ago
If you ignore HACKER in “Hacker news - news that matter” sure. But I learned to read in school, and can comprehend the context formed from the last 5 words. Heck even GPT can do that!

BTW autism is a disorder, using that the way you do, as some kind of insult is disrespectful and disgusting.

hansmayer•2mo ago
Yeah I am sorry for misusing the word "autistic" here. it was done without thinking, but it still does not make it right and I apologise to any people with such a disorder reading this. I should have said something along the lines of "world-ignorant nerds" or something to that effect. I guess I was a bit irritated by people being pedantic about classifying the topics when the topic is a literal human safari. That is a sort of thing that should interest us all, hacker or no hacker, it kinda transcends the little bubbles we wrap around our daily lives.
notmyjob•2mo ago
This reminds me of that old-web website that sold human meat. Human depravity no’s no bounds.
generalpf•2mo ago
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(It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia S04E01)

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