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UK's first small nuclear power station to be built in north Wales

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c051y3d7myzo
54•ksec•2h ago

Comments

mikaeluman•1h ago
Great news. Lets hope this is just the start.

The whole of Europe needs to get on with energy security and Britain can and should be a leader here, next to Netherlands, Sweden and France.

hdgvhicv•1h ago
The question is what’s better value for money, wind and solar (potentially with storage when required), or nuclear.
helltone•1h ago
In the UK, probably nuclear.
rcxdude•1h ago
Nuclear is surprisingly expensive and solar/wind/storage is surprisingly cheap. Even solar in the UK has better economics than nuclear, and it has no shortage of wind.
cenamus•1h ago
Yeah, the UK is probably one of the best places for offshore wind, and they're building gigantic fields.

And compared to what Hinkley Point C is gonna cost... solar and wind is basically for free

neilwilson•54m ago
Not when you take the circular economy into account. We’ve always been very good at making boilers. Less so semiconductors.
krona•33m ago
The outcome of Contracts for Difference (CfD) Allocation Round 6 suggests wind isn't cheap compared to wholesale electricity prices in the UK, which are already one of the highest in the world. The maths is quite simple.

And that doesn't include curtailment costs, which are not insignificant.

cinntaile•1h ago
As usual the answer is likely to be a combination of energy sources. It's not wind and solar (+storage) OR nuclear, it's wind and solar (+storage) AND nuclear (and of course other energy sources when appropriate).
ViewTrick1002•51m ago
The problem is that nuclear powers profile with fixed output and extremely high CAPEX costs is the opposite to what a modern grid needs.

How would you add an extremely expensive new built nuclear plant to this grid? Would you shut it down for days on end or try to run it as a peaker?

https://explore.openelectricity.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=7d&...

justincormack•48m ago
Or add a load of batteries to the capex and redistribute the constant load?
ViewTrick1002•44m ago
If taking that step, why charge the batteries with extremely expensive nuclear powered electricity rather than cheap renewables?

It is done when moving electricity around when the grid is strained. Buy expensive electricity and sell it at even higher prices. But that is a vanishly tiny portion of the demand.

cinntaile•37m ago
That's South Australia, not the UK.

My point still stands though given that I specifically did not exclude any scenario. It makes more sense to optimize when you include all energy sources. It's still possible some sources won't end up in the final solution and that's fine.

rwmj•1h ago
Wind & nuclear together. Britain already has large wind installations, since the sea to the east is quite shallow (it used to be a land bridge to Europe only 7,000-10,000 years ago). Back that up with nuclear providing the base load and you have reasonable energy security.
ViewTrick1002•49m ago
> Back that up with nuclear providing the base load and you have reasonable energy security.

So you’re saying that we should turn off the nuclear plant?

What do we calculate? A generous 50% capacity factor?

The new built nuclear power now costs ~40 cents/kWh.

It just becomes ridiculously expensive when real world constraints are added.

happymellon•40m ago
The current "real world constraint" is purchasing gas from Russia.

Yeah, nuclear is better than that.

ViewTrick1002•35m ago
Almost all of Europe has stopped buying Russian gas? The exception being nuclear powered France. [1]

You also do know that we despite 19 sanctions packages still haven’t been able to sanction the Russian nuclear industry? We’re just too dependent on it.

[1]: https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/eu-talks-tough-russian-lng-...

newsclues•28m ago
Depends on the load, but nuclear isn’t dependent upon batteries or the wind.
zwnow•1h ago
I dont understand this cult like love for nuclear energy. Its the same behavior Tesla lovers or Apple lovers have, just ignoring all the issues... I'd be a fan too if there weren't about 130000 barrels of nuclear waste rotting in an old salt mine threatening my fresh water supply. Also the Russian attack on the Ukraine has shown that these stations are easy targets. No thanks.
Angostura•59m ago
What ‘cult-like’ love would this be? If you are in a climate emergency it’s worth exploring all energy options and nuclear is one option for helping with baseload. It would be dumb to ignore it.
zwnow•54m ago
Just cut off the general public from power for like 1/6th of the day instead of going for unsafe solutions. Considering the amount of bullshit we power nowadays we can surely live without power for some hours of the day until we find better solutions.
roenxi•46m ago
That sounds like a pretty unsafe solution, it'll injure people. What if a member of the general public trips while stumbling around in the dark? Or gets food poisoning from improperly refrigerated food?
NitpickLawyer•44m ago
There's nothing inherently unsafe about small nuclear reactors. We've been using them safely since the 50s. You can look it up, you have the entire history of the world at your fingertips. Here's a fun fact: the bloke that was the first commander of a nuclear powered submarine (1954!) went on to be the first commander of a nuclear powered boat. And he got to live till 90+ yo. The tech is safe. The fear-mongering people are boring. It's literally the reason we can't have cool shit.
zwnow•37m ago
Whats ur solution to nuclear waste?
ViewTrick1002•47m ago
If it is an emergency why waste money on multiples more expensive nuclear power rather than renewables and storage?

We still need to decarbonize tons of other industries so why waste money on the one we have solved?

Good enough beats imaginary engineer perfect solutions.

exe34•55m ago
this pearl clutching is basically why we don't have breeder reactors making use of all this "waste".
happymellon•38m ago
> the Ukraine

Careful, your mask is slipping.

It is Ukraine, not The Ukraine. It is a country, not an area.

zwnow•37m ago
Didn't know I was being followed by the grammar police.
comrade1234•19m ago
It's The Ukraine in German and many other gendered languages. In German it's the feminine gender (die) and cannot be avoided when constructing sentences because the article used can completely change the meaning of the sentence.
Tabular-Iceberg•28m ago
Why don't the anti-underground disposal crowd advocate more for long term dry cask storage where monitoring and maintenance is both cheap and easy?
cpursley•5m ago
As if wind, solar arrays, hydro, transfer stations aren’t?
7bit•1h ago
Truly great news. Less competition in the renewable energy sector for us.
londons_explore•1h ago
Nuclear is an industry that strangled itself with red tape and harmful PR, making every project fiendishly expensive and take so many decades that cost-of-capital costs are insane.

I don't think it will ever again beat solar+wind+battery for grid scale carbon-free power pricing.

longor1996•1h ago
Wasn't all that bad PR mostly caused by the coal/oil industry, doing some serious astroturfing for a decade or so?
toyg•59m ago
If by "the coal industry" you mean people in charge of Chernobyl and Fukushima...
Angostura•58m ago
And Windscale (now Sellafield) and Three Mile Island
longor1996•40m ago
Oh, sorry! Shouldn't have said "all" there... :'D
lysace•51m ago
See also: Gazprom, Gerhard Schröder (”Putin’s man in Germany” according to NYT) and the German nuclear power shutdown.

https://atomicinsights.com/gazprom-profiting-mightily-from-g...

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/world/europe/schroder-ger...

eucyclos•6m ago
I think it was mostly caused by fear about nuclear Armageddon during the cold war - it's hard to feel like the world could end at any second due to nuclear bombs while also feeling grateful for nuclear electricity generation. Would be even if there was no overlap between military and civilian nuclear industries, which of course there is.
Tabular-Iceberg•53m ago
This was my impression as well, both watching Smarter Every Day and visiting a nuclear power plant myself and taking the tour.

Yes, safety is important, but I think they're far into diminishing returns territory, and we have to take the penalty in both energy cost and security.

michaelt•44m ago
> I don't think it will ever again beat solar+wind+battery for grid scale carbon-free power pricing.

The problem the UK has is their climate: Northerly enough that solar makes 5x as much power in the summer as it does in the winter, and much more demand for heating in the winter than cooling in the summer.

Batteries are fine for storing solar in the day and using it at night - but much less good for summer-to-winter storage. And the UK isn't exactly eager to start flooding desolate valleys for pumped storage reservoirs either.

Oh, and they don't just need to decarbonise their existing electricity output - they also need to greatly increase their electricity output to hit their goals on EV and heat pump adoption; and they need to lower electricity prices too.

I can see why they'd hedge their bets.

stephen_g•38m ago
The UK has massive wind resources up north. Absolutely no need for summer-to-winter storage, that would be madness!
eucyclos•15m ago
Even if it had never had those issues, nuclear power would still be the textbook example of a fragile system - capital-intensive, centralized projects that can be shut down by disruption to fuel shipments halfway round the world, droughts in the cooling system's water sources, or any of a dozen unions of specialized workers going on strike. Add to that iteration cycles measured in decades instead of years and it's hard to imagine how Nuclear could ever even close the gap, let alone pull ahead.

I have a theory that smart financiers avoid nuclear because getting a new version done on time and under budget is so damn hard, and smart physicists gravitate to nuclear for the same reason. I wish the nuclear-curious factions would pivot to a project Orion style endeavor instead of powering a UK hamlet sometime in the 2030s. Now there's something insanely difficult and likely to fail that I wouldn't mind my tax dollars being spent on.

Philip-J-Fry•1h ago
Producing power by the mid 2030s? Isn't the entire point of SMRs that they are effectively a complete package and it takes very little effort to ship them out and getting them to produce power. Or is this just a pipe-dream we were sold?

Like, I imagined these things being compact enough to be shipped to the outskirts of towns and producing power. Afterall, they are from the same technology that was powering nuclear subs, right?

thyristan•1h ago
The reactor is still to be developed by Rolls Royce, which is hidden in mid article. The don't have plans, not even a working prototype yet, so expect delays to at least the mid 2040s.
masklinn•56m ago
> Isn't the entire point of SMRs that they are effectively a complete package and it takes very little effort to ship them out and getting them to produce power.

That's the point if / when we have actually working SMRs, with production lines set up. But the limited development of small civilian reactors before the 80s and the 3 decades freeze on most things nuclear means SMRs are only just getting out of research status (e.g. in the US only NuScale's VOYGR are currently certified).

topspin•47m ago
This Rolls Royce design isn't all that "small." A RR SMR design is a 470MWe PWR. About half the size of a typical PWR reactor. Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 was 460MWe. Calling this an "SMR" is a stretch, likely for PR purposes.

It's a rather conventional design, low enriched fuel, no exotic coolants. There is a paper on it at NRC[1]. And they've never built one, so if they get it running by the 2030's they'll be doing pretty well for a Western company.

[1] https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2521/ML25212A115.pdf

Archelaos•1h ago
Horrible news. The next 50.000 generations will have to pay for this. Will this madness never stop?
Angostura•57m ago
You’re talking about the unhindered release of CO2 into the atmosphere, I assume
roenxi•56m ago
If a generation is ~20 years then 50,000 generations is around a million years. We're talking several times longer than recorded history. In fact, I was curious and looked it up - Homo Sapiens is estimated to be around 300,000 years old [0]. We should be so lucky if there are humans around in 50,000 generations. Just by nature of the amount of stuff that happens, if they have any conception of what the UK was or any idea what happened there then there has been some sort of transcendental enlightenment where there are no longer limits on how many memories a human can retain.

In short, I think you are exaggerating the downsides of maybe a potential 10x cost blowout on the budget of a government project and a trivial amount of waste disposal.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Evolution

Tabular-Iceberg•41m ago
Paying for a few security guards to sit next to the dry casks and point out that you'd better not crack them open and snort the contents for 50,000 generations will be peanuts compared to all the other expenses associated with keeping a society going for 50,000 generations.
perihelions•1h ago
> "The old nuclear power plant at Wylfa was switched off in 2015"

Tangentially—this is a brownfield site, where there once was an early generation of nuclear fission reactor, cooled by CO2 gas. Here's a brief description of what those machines looked like (not this exact one):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29890470 ("Nothing like this will be built again"—263 comments)

Oras•1h ago
Hopefully not another HS2
jorisboris•1h ago
I believe the more technologically advanced we live the more energy we will use. Travel requires energy, ai models require energy, healthy food requires energy

The cheaper and more abundant we can make electricity, the faster we can reap the benefits of new technology

imo nuclear is an important part to have abundant energy at all times

irthomasthomas•50m ago
Anglesey is beautiful[0]. My ancestors came from there and I used to holiday there as a child. Today it is somewhat blighted by those ugly and noisy turbines[1]. I am in favor of this if it reduces the number of onshore turbines on the island.

0 https://www.celtictrailswalkingholidays.co.uk/wp-content/upl...

1 https://i2-prod.walesonline.co.uk/article21841043.ece/ALTERN...

testdelacc1•34m ago
This live dashboard puts this number in perspective - https://grid.iamkate.com/

Roughly: the demand is about 33-35GW. That’s projected to become 50GW by 2050 as transportation and home heating become electrified. So that’s the puck we’re skating towards.

Nuclear supplies a constant 10% of the demand today (more, if you count imports from France). The goal is to power 20% of the 50GW demand through nuclear. If it’s cheap, even more. Each of these Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) generates 470MW, so we’d need about 20 of them.

The plan is to set up a factory near Sheffield and produce the reactor parts like IKEA, so they can be assembled on site. The hope is that manufacturing and assembling the same product repeatedly makes people more efficient. That’s the main problem with nuclear - over budget and delays - that SMRs aim to fix.

I’m glad the UK is taking electrification seriously, and is investing in domestic industry that will hopefully export reactors if it’s successful. Some folks might look at the estimated date of completion (2035) and get discouraged, but I wouldn’t. The best time to plant this tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.

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