Reselling tickets for profit to be outlawed in UK government crackdown

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/nov/17/reselling-tickets-for-profit-to-be-outlawed-in-uk-government-crackdown

39•helsinkiandrew•2mo ago

Comments

WalterBright•2mo ago

Arbitrage is a normal free market process that finds the optimal prices for things. Trying to regulate prices always results in gluts, shortages, and black markets.

mrtksn•2mo ago

It may lead to optimal profit but immensely hurt the society. Not everything should be optimized for profit.

If you are going after full profit optimization we are leaving huge amount on the table by offering billionaires food at prices that are insignificant for tem. Maybe we should start optimizing for the million dollar burgers then?

If the average Brit is spending %10 of their daily income for a meal, obviously its suboptimal for a person making a million a day to eat anything for less than 100K. In fact, it doesn't even have to have anything to do with percentages, maybe the meal can be optimized up until 999910GBP. Even the rich guy needs to eat, optimize the prices to the point that he has to choose between starvation and 999910GBP burger

_dain_•2mo ago

seller agrees to sell ticket at $PRICE.

buyer agrees to buy ticket at $PRICE.

how is society hurt, here?

the government banning this is immediately harmful: it prevents a mutually agreeable trade that would otherwise have increased the utility of both parties.

mrtksn•2mo ago

People can't go to concerts despite being just as hardworking or just as big fans and start shooting CEOs on the streets.

Some systems need to work and be accessible to everyone so we can sustain peaceful and healthy society.

This is not charity, this is to account for externalities and the miscalculations in the free market. Awful lot of people are underpaid and overpaid as they progress through their lives because the markets are actually not that efficient and prices are not formed under perfect information or instantly.

You want your mechanical engineers to be able to afford decent life even if all the market current wants is JavaScript engineers because when the tides shift you may end up needing mechanical engineers to produce physical stuff so you want them around and happy.

Also, the price could actually be too low too when its optimized for short term profits. Re-sell 100GBP tickets for 500GBP, filter for money and leave out the actual fans and maybe lose all the events for the next year. If you are going to do a daytime robbery, better not ever need money again from the people you are robbing.

_dain_•2mo ago

if they want to go to the concert they should pay the fair market price for a ticket. and in addition, they should refrain from murdering people, because murder is wrong.

the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market. they indicate that the music industry is not supplying concerts in sufficient quantity/quality as the market demands, or perhaps not in the right places or at the right times. prices are a signal; you outlaw them at your peril.

this is a case where the monkey-brain fairness intuition is simply flat out 100% wrong. scalper economics has been studied for decades; it is known that banning these trades exacerbates shortages. lot of ppl in this thread who would not pass introductory microeconomics.

salawat•2mo ago

>the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market.

Always amuses me that the wannabe market experts ascribe theory of mind to markets. Personal risk tolerance and ability to execute without starving is what constrains supply of talent, who are not intrinsically born with either the knowledge or capability to begin the market based transaction process.

God (or your market) does not magically whip up concerts in response to spreadsheets. People taking risks do.

mrtksn•2mo ago

Amazing isn’t it, people don’t want to think about the implementation details at all. Things just happen magically, if the market demands more concerts and less coders then programmers start doing concerts!

card_zero•2mo ago

That sounds true, though. Some of the coders can play an instrument, or if that's not important these days they can sing through a filter and dance in spandex. It can be their day job, to support their coding hobby.

mrtksn•2mo ago

"Can play instrument" is almost never good enough to sell tickets, just like "is good with computers" isn't good enough to be a professional programmer.

card_zero•2mo ago

So, by diverse ways, the market can reassign suitable people to performing. For instance the programmer can go into sound engineering to replace a sound engineer who is now fulfilling an ambition to be on stage.

mrtksn•2mo ago

no it doesn’t happen like that, those who lose marketable value start doing something much less complex like driving taxi. There are numerous examples of such things. market doesn’t reassign anybody to anything because people don’t change overnight or after some age.

It is one of the primary reasons why many people from the subway times and I’m not having a good time, like rocket scientists becoming taxi drivers

card_zero•2mo ago

Can't parse your last sentence, but OK: the programmer drives a taxi, a talented taxi driver gets an opportunity to perform music. Maybe I didn't understand your issue and you're really complaining that the surplus programmers will be miserable, not that new music acts won't emerge.

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

>> the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market.

How does scalping, which transfers money from fans, artists, and the music industry to ticket touts who have nothing to do with music, "incentivise the creation" of anything? Except, I suppose, bot farms and clickfarm sweatshops?

kakacik•2mo ago

Not sure about your situation, but the only situation I ever experienced out there were scalpers getting ridiculous amounts of tickets beforehand, sometimes via shady contacts and then reselling them for profit.

What about some middle ground - allow sale for and below the purchase price and punish severely any profiteering? The only reason scalpers do it is for money - if the punishment and risk are big enough it solved itself.

Where I live, the biggest festival in whole country (Paleo @Switzerland) explicitly bans resale for some time and nobody real is complaining, its fair and tickets are sold within minutes of becoming available.

The last point - if some psycho is starting to shoot others because they can't go to some fucking concert then the underlying condition needs to be targeted, not sweeping reality in front of them so they never trip on some obstacle in real life. 'Eat the rich' trope is stuff immature frustrated kids tell to peers, nothing more.

mrtksn•2mo ago

Sure, the issue isn't ticket resale but profiteering that damages the scene. An alternative could be the tickets be assigned for the individual like plane tickets but be transferable so if someone is transferring tickets all the time you can block them.

WalterBright•2mo ago

> The only reason scalpers do it is for money

The only reason people work and run businesses is for money. Not doing it for money is called a "hobby", "charity" and "volunteering".

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

The "only" reason? What happened to "making the world a better place"?

WalterBright•2mo ago

> prices are not formed under perfect information

There is no requirement for perfect information in order for a free market to function. The term for lack of perfect information is "risk" and is factored in to negotiations and the price.

card_zero•2mo ago

I wonder what would happen in a world where sellers have instant information about how rich the buyer is, and they all raise the offered price accordingly, for every product.

mrtksn•2mo ago

That's already being done at some scale to consumers but the actual monumental shift can happen if it can be done to everybody. People are leaving a lot of money on the table by not gauging the prices for individuals that can pay much much more. If Musk is thirsty and forgot to bring his bottle, it should be possible to sell him a billion dollar bottle of water. Anyone around him can just coordinate and gauge the price to the limit and share the profit. The profits from such a trade will greatly exceed the pay of any PA etc, if the opportunity arises just resign don't give him the water for the optimal deal.

card_zero•2mo ago

If executed perfectly, I imagine this removes all incentive to make money, since you can't obtain any more stuff with more money. It wouldn't even be nicer water. Trading is cut off from ability to accomplish anything. This kills the economy.

WalterBright•2mo ago

All these theories have been tried one way or another. The only one that works is the free market, because the free market is the only one that relies on people being selfish.

Any system that relies on unselfish behavior fails.

card_zero•2mo ago

No, this isn't proposal for a system. It's a vision of a disaster, if it works.

mrtksn•2mo ago

It's not a proposal it's a thought experiment demonstrating the problems with relentless profit optimization

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

That's a little happy fairy tale with extra sparkly fairy dust on top but what all that free markets have given us in practice is misery, despair, war, destruction and environmental catastrophe.

Capitalism is “the astonishing belief that the nastiest motives of the nastiest men somehow or other work for the best results in the best of all possible worlds.”

(Attributed to J. M. Keynes: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes#Attributed)

P.S. It doesn't help of course that "free" markets are never really free because they are very quickly taken over by the "nastiest men" etc. and the last thing those people care about is freedom, particularly that of the markets they make their money from.

See for instance the subject of ticket touts. There is no free market in online ticket reselling because the entire market's cornered by bot farmers who buy tickets in bulk automatically the moment they are made available and leave none for anyone else. "Free" market, my sweet little hiney.

And btw, in the UK the same thing happens with driving test slots:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn09v4d2xe7o

_dain_•2mo ago

the shortage of driving test slots is entirely the fault of inefficient government bureaucracy. people are rationally responding to the scarcity by using bots.

if the supply of tests were allowed to rise naturally to meet the existing demand, this problem wouldn't exist. we are only in this situation because the government artificially limits the supply.

this is a very common pattern where people get upset at high prices but are completely incurious as to where the shortage really comes from.

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

Sounds like a two birds, one stone kind of thing. Very efficient, I like it.

WalterBright•2mo ago

> Anyone around him can just coordinate and gauge the price to the limit

That's called a "cartel". Cartels are unstable because they have every reason to undersell the cartel price. OPEC had a lot of problems with its members selling on the sly at lower prices.

> and share the profit

They're not going to share the profit. They're going to pocket it.

WalterBright•2mo ago

The seller would lose the sale, because the buyer would go buy it elsewhere.

card_zero•2mo ago

But the idea is to tailor prices to what the individual is willing to pay, compensating perfectly for any willingness to do extravagant spending caused by having more money, cancelling out its effects so that the buyer gets the same old goods at a new price. The seller isn't undercut by another seller, because the buyer is willing to pay that much.

It probably falls apart on that last assumption: rich people aren't really willing to pay proportionately more for goods.

tombot•2mo ago

why can’t I just pay ticketmaster the face value, why must we allow another middleman to charges me more? because capitalism? na mate

lotsofpulp•2mo ago

"Face value" is constantly changing. Why must you forbid someone from buying and selling something? If the performer has a problem with it, they can easily enforce ID requirements that require whoever buys the ticket first to be the person that attends.

helsinkiandrew•2mo ago

That would be an auction. Now we have a situation where a third party gets between seller and buyer, purchases large quantities of tickets then sells them for an inflated price to the buyer and both buyer and seller feel ripped off.

lotsofpulp•2mo ago

That's not an auction. It's just entity A selling to entity B and entity B selling to entity C.

helsinkiandrew•2mo ago

Sorry, I should have quoted what I was calling an auction from the comment:

> a mutually agreeable trade that would otherwise have increased the utility of both parties.

matthewdgreen•2mo ago

Seller agrees to sell ticket at PRICE. Monopoly intermediate provider sells it at $PRICE+$markup. Monopoly intermediate provider sells it to a reseller, which artificially limits the supply available to buyers at any given moment. Buyers have to go to resellers, who then pay $markup2 back to the monopoly provider to transfer the ticket to the ultimate buyer. This may even repeat several times, resulting in the monopoly provider reaping more in markup fees than the seller receives for the actual product.

lotsofpulp•2mo ago

Original seller is free to sell it with the stipulation that original buyer is the only person that can use the ticket.

However, entertainers have an image problem that conflicts with the desire to maximize profit. Entertainers are often times in the business of appealing to the broader public. But if they restrict their ticket sales to the highest bidder, then the broader public's appeal is limited.

Having a third party engage in the price discrimination allows the entertainer's image to remain intact, while also collecting higher prices (perhaps not from the ticket sales directly, but the third party willing to pay more for the entertainer if the entertainer allows them to resell tickets).

sowbug•2mo ago

That argument should be equally valid for US healthcare, prison phone calls, price gouging during natural disasters, housing prices, and college tuition.

Yet many people, possibly most people, feel something is broken.

WalterBright•2mo ago

Free markets optimize for utility. Profit is just a side effect of that.

mrtksn•2mo ago

Whatever it optimizes for, often it makes it everything fall apart due to short sightedness, unaccounted externalities and actual failure in optimization. Would have been all fine eventually if human life wasn't finite and suffering didn't exist.

WalterBright•2mo ago

Nobody has implemented a better system.

mrtksn•2mo ago

IMHO this wanders into the realm of philosophy at this point because of the word “better”. You can always choose alternative KPIs and prioritize.

The KPI of profit has become harmful enough that people like Thiel observe that the system isn’t working anymore.

WalterBright•2mo ago

The US free market is objectively better than any other system. That's why the US has millions of people trying to get in. They're not trying to get into Cuba or Venezuela. The USSR had to build a wall to keep people from fleeing.

mrtksn•2mo ago

Not everyone is trying, it's mostly Mexicans and other south Americans so you can say that it's better than cartel ridden poor countries. Definitely provides great opportunities to do paid work or even invest but that's just one aspect of life.

BobaFloutist•2mo ago

I think a moderately, responsively regulated market is usually superior to a strictly free market, personally.

criddell•2mo ago

Are you assuming the goal is to find the optimal price?

matthewdgreen•2mo ago

Have you considered the possibility that this dogma is not accurate, and that in the US we actually have a market failure?

WalterBright•2mo ago

What market failure are you seeing here?

usr1106•2mo ago

Creating artificial shortage and than charging overprices is not a normal free market process. Businesses should create added value, then they can charge a price for it.

Actors that misuse or unfairly dominate free markets will trigger regulation, that's the way it has always been. Some regulators are weak, so we still have endure cancers like Google and Microsoft.

lotsofpulp•2mo ago

There is no artificial shortage, there is an inherent shortage. Sufficiently popular entertainers such that a ticket price arbitrage opportunity exists must be, by definition, in short supply.

There exist only so many performance days in an entertainer’s lifetime. And, obviously, venues have capacity limits.

usr1106•2mo ago

So what is the added value created by those resellers to address the inherent shortage?

haneefmubarak•2mo ago

In theory they provide market liquidity such that for anyone who REALLY wants to go, at any time prior to and potentially even during the event, there remain some options available for purchase; as opposed to basically spinning the lottery on whether you get to go or not, especially for oversubscribed events.

hypeatei•2mo ago

Hmm, it seems like we've forgotten that we can vote with our wallet. If this practice wasn't desired because it raised prices too much or some other reason, then people wouldn't give the resellers their money.

RHSeeger•2mo ago

This assumes the only dynamics are "the seller wants to make as much as possible" and "the buyer wants to spend as little as possible".

There are plenty of cases where the seller (artist, venue, etc) want to keep prices low to allow a wider audience to attend the show.

WalterBright•2mo ago

> There are plenty of cases where the seller (artist, venue, etc) want to keep prices low to allow a wider audience to attend the show.

There are only so many seats in a venue. Suppose there are 1000 seats and 5000 people want tickets. What's your plan on how to allocate them?

RHSeeger•2mo ago

First come first serve, or a lottery, or any number of other algorithms. The point being "the people with the most money" isn't the algorithm that everyone wants.

card_zero•2mo ago

The idea is that if venues can sell tickets at higher prices, to the rich or silly (via resellers or not), you get more venues and more acts, even at the low end where tickets are cheap, because it's bigger business.

WalterBright•2mo ago

Nobody wants an algorithm that leaves them without a ticket, and that includes your proposals.

> the people with the most money

That's not the algorithm employed. The algorithm is "the people who are willing to outbid the others". That is quite different.

Besides, with a lottery you won't know if you got the ticket until the last minute. How are you going to make plans with your sweetie, then? Or are traveling from out of town?

BobaFloutist•2mo ago

The lottery can happen an arbitrary amount of time before the actual event.

nickpp•2mo ago

During communist years here in Eastern Europe, we got to experience the "knowing people in the Nomenklatura and Party" resource allocation algorithm.

It was obvious to us that the "people with most money" algorithm was vastly superior since it made people work harder to get those money, thus enhancing the society. Also, the extra cash strongly incentivized and funded people to create more of the scarce resource.

The other algorithms failed to incentivize to such a degree that in the end we were starving and freezing because nobody wanted to work to create food, heat or any other products and services anymore.

codedokode•2mo ago

In this case you can have concerts 2 or 3 days in a row.

littlestymaar•2mo ago

> Trying to regulate prices always results in gluts, shortages

When the demand is higher than the supply and supply is inelastic (which is the case for these kind of events) then there's no difference between unaffordable prices and a shortage.

The difference only exist for the upper class who can pay the inflated price anyway.

In a society where there are significant differences in income, the price signal is meaningless and it just segregates people by revenues.

WalterBright•2mo ago

If the price signal is meaningless, then why aren't the scalpers charging 100 times as much?

littlestymaar•2mo ago

Do you know what the “price signal” phrase even mean?

Because this answer has absolutely nothing to do with price signal as a economic concept.

_dain_•2mo ago

idiotic populist move. resellers exist because the listed price is much lower than the price people are willing to pay. banning them doesn't make the demand go away. this will just create a black market in resold tickets, with no legal recourse against fraud etc.

yookay government's crusade to outlaw all useful economic activity continues apace. you can't legislate away scarcity.

EDIT:

>How is scalping a useful economic activity? What new value is created by for example buying up loads of Taylor Swift concert tickets and selling them at a marked up price?

if I don't want to wait in a queue or spam F5 on a website at 4 in the morning so I can be one of the first, I can instead pay somebody to do all that tedious work for me, and they can profit from it. this is a valuable service that I'm willing to pay for, and have in fact paid for with no regrets whatsoever.

SCARCITY IS A FUNDAMENTAL ECONOMIC FACT. more people want to attend a concert than there are seats available. this scarcity must be rationed in some way. there are many ways: queues, lotteries, clientelism, theft. prices are one of the more efficient mechanisms, because unlike the others, money can be directly traded, stored, accounted for, and is a means by which the value of other goods and services can be compared.

if I wait in a queue, that is a cost I have to pay, but it is simply lost. it goes nowhere. but if I pay someone else to sit in the queue for me, I can do something else useful with the time I would have spent in the queue, and that other person can then use the money to buy something else in the future. that is the value of scalping! moreover, that one other person can sit in the queue on behalf of N other people; we all benefit from this economic specialisation and reduction of redundancy.

scalpers are the unjustly persecuted heroes of our economy. they are apostates from Queueing, our national religion.

yladiz•2mo ago

It’s not like you really had much recourse before anyway, if someone sold you a fake ticket or one that’s already been used, are you really going to sue them or the platform? Charge back and hope you get the money back?

_dain_•2mo ago

>Charge back and hope you get the money back?

yes, that's what Section 75 protection is for

yladiz•2mo ago

What if your ticket is like 70£?

criddell•2mo ago

> this will just create a black market in resold tickets

It doesn't have to though, does it? For example there's no black market for airline tickets.

lawlessone•2mo ago

>resellers exist because the listed price is much lower than the price people are willing to pay.

This is such a copout, resellers inflate the price.

>yookay government's crusade to outlaw all useful economic activity continues apace.

How is scalping a useful economic activity?

What new value is created for concert goers or artists/venue by for example buying up loads of Taylor Swift concert tickets and selling them at a marked up price?

No value is added by paying a huge extra margin to rent seeking scalpers.

Not everything in the world has to be a stock market.

>SCARCITY IS A FUNDAMENTAL ECONOMIC FACT.

>scalpers are economic heroes.

Lol, the tout is crashing out.

_dain_•2mo ago

why must we believe that the resellers "inflating" the price, instead of the initial price being "deflated"? there is no Platonic "true" price here.

the ground truth is what individual people are willing to pay.

lawlessone•2mo ago

>the ground truth is what individual people are willing to pay.

This kinda seems like it's just putting an ideology before people.

Markets and money are just tools for human benefit, don't turn your wrench into a religion.

hypeatei•2mo ago

The people willing to pay those prices inflate them. I could buy a $1k car and list it for a million dollars tomorrow. If no one buys it, then it's not worth $1M. If someone does, then it's worth that amount.

WheatMillington•2mo ago

You're ignoring the effect of scalpers, who dramatically increase the demand and thereby drive the secondary price up. It's self-fulfilling.

hypeatei•2mo ago

How do scalpers create more demand? The demand is from people wanting to see the concert, no?

WheatMillington•2mo ago

>useful economic activity

Sorry but I remain unconvinced.

kingstnap•2mo ago

Its not, efficiency doesn't mean charging exactly what people will pay.

Scalpers don't produce more tickets, they just eat away consumer surplus. It's not a net good its just rent seeking.

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

>> scalpers are the unjustly persecuted heroes of our economy. they are apostates from Queueing, our national religion.

Right? Scalpers are only the latest in a long line of wrongly persecuted financial minorities like black market sellers, smugglers, drug lords, pirates, slavers, pimps, and Ponzi scheme entrepreneurs. Freedom to the heroes of our markets!

CyberDildonics•2mo ago

I think you're confusing the concept of arbitrage with human trafficking.

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

... and traffickers. Thank you!

CyberDildonics•2mo ago

That's implied with slavery.

Equating someone who sells a pokemon card on ebay with people who sell other people into slavery is a bold choice.

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

Thank god nobody made it.

CyberDildonics•2mo ago

Do you mean nobody else made it? Because you did put 'scalpers' and 'slavers' in the same sentence.

YeGoblynQueenne•2mo ago

You put pokemon and slavery in the same sentence.

CyberDildonics•2mo ago

No, I said reselling pokemon cards. That's an example of scalping. You lumped them all together.

Scalpers are only the latest in a long line of wrongly persecuted financial minorities like black market sellers, smugglers, drug lords, pirates, slavers, pimps, and Ponzi scheme entrepreneurs.

Why won't you confront what you actually said? Why are you trying to twist words around instead?

cyrusradfar•2mo ago

I think this is net-positive for venues, local economies, and the artists. All this money is effectively getting sucked out of local economies and moving to multi-national marketplaces.

We also know prices can go up on the raw ticket and we know that consumers can bear that given where they were before this legislation. That additional money will go to Venues, Artists and Labels who will, ideally, create more and better shows for the all of us.

If you imagine today that a ticket is $45 (speaking US) and customers pay $450, eventually for it. That $405 doesn't go to the Artist or the Venue, it goes to a middle layer which adds little to no value for the eco-system beyond supporting a transaction. Moreover, when you spend all the budget on the ticket, you're less likely to buy merch and food at the venue.

Something most on this site could easily build with the help of stripe, a few database tables, and an API to the venue's ticketing management system.

hypeatei•2mo ago

If Venues and Artists were missing out, couldn't they have changed their terms when selling the ticket?

I don't really see why the UK government would need to step in here at all.

cyrusradfar•2mo ago

I'd generally agree with your direction & perspective and don't know why this was the necessary place.

  - Why didn't venues want more of the revenue? 
  - Why couldn't artists simply set their terms for their tickets? I don't have the answers and it may depend on

There are hands at play I'm not seeing/understanding as this legislation was pushed for by major artists.

maldev•2mo ago

Most venues ban resale, or limit it heavily. What you end up with is sketchy people outside the venue or on facebook selling tickets for cash/paypal, and it's 50/50 on whether it's legit or not. Which is exactly how sites like StubHub work. Some people travel and get hotels with these resold tickets, and find out they were sold multiple times, or were fraudulent and at best can only get the ticket price back, and either pay more for a new one last minute, or be left with a hotel and vacation to sit outside the show.

There's nothing the venue can do, I went to a show recently that sent day of QR codes to try and prevent resale, and scalpers either mirror the app with a link, or take a picture. You can't check ID's at a 100,000 + person event.

RHSeeger•2mo ago

I disagree that they extra ticket price will now go to the artist/venue; because they always had the option to raise their ticket prices.

However, wanting to keep ticket prices down for _other_ reasons (selling more merch, good will, etc) is valid.

Pet_Ant•2mo ago

I think tickets should be auctioned by the venue. It means there is no incentive for bots or scalpers.

littlestymaar•2mo ago

It also means price end up being too expensive for many fans to go.

There's a reason why concerts prices are set to a much lower price that what scalpers can resell them, it's because the artists usually don't seek to extract the most money for a tour and they'd rather give their fans an opportunity to see them instead. (As long as it's profitable indeed, but there's a big gap).

rvz•2mo ago

At this point, making money will become illegal in the United Kingdom.

orian•2mo ago

But why? If one may resell apartment for profit, why do we regulate tickets?

dzhiurgis•2mo ago

Good luck enforcing this.

> Buy this NFT and get free tickets to X.

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