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NTSB Preliminary Report – Ups Boeing MD-11F Crash [pdf]

https://www.ntsb.gov/Documents/Prelimiary%20Report%20DCA26MA024.pdf
54•gregsadetsky•1h ago

Comments

frenchman_in_ny•1h ago
Adding summary analysis from AVHerald [0]

[0] https://avherald.com/h?article=52f5748f&opt=0

Aman_Kalwar•54m ago
Appreciate the transparency in these reports. The technical breakdowns always highlight how complex aviation safety is.
philip1209•53m ago
Originally explained on the blancolirio channel on YouTube -

The timing and manner of the break make a lot more intuitive sense when you consider that the engine is essentially a massive gyroscope. As the plane starts to rotate, the spinning engine resists changes to the direction of its spin axis, putting load on the cowling. When the cowling and mount fail, that angular momentum helps fling the engine toward the fuselage.

cj•48m ago
There might be some truth in that. But the report doesn't confirm that theory.
philip1209•43m ago
I'm presenting it "useful not true" - not an RCA.
rconti•37m ago
What theory? That the mount failed? Or the rotation of the engine in the photos going up and over the fuselage?

It seems like both are true, but doesn't necessarily prove WHY the mount failed.

cj•14m ago
That the engine was flung into the fuselage due to gyroscopic forces.
londons_explore•34m ago
I assume such forces are calculated and added in when deciding hot thick to make those mounting brackets.
baggy_trough•30m ago
Yes, but the point is that this moment of the takeoff is when a failure that's been waiting to happen is most likely both because of the thrust and the gyroscopic resistance.
albert_e•45m ago
The surveillance video mentioned in page 2 -- from which the series of still images are shown -- is that available publicly?
rft•13m ago
I haven't seen that one, this video [1] includes a different angle taken from a vehicle on the airport.

[1] https://youtu.be/POKJUJk_2xs?t=342

sosodev•37m ago
A commenter in HN thread covering the initial crash mentioned that the left engine detaching might have been the cause https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45821537

The referenced AA Flight 191 is shockingly similar. It makes me wonder if aviation really is back sliding into a dangerous place.

lotsofpulp•25m ago
Are you referring to AA 191 in 1979? That seems like low enough frequency event to not be worried about it.

The murder suicides in the last few decades seem more concerning.

jeffbee•23m ago
I don't know if it's "sliding back" as much as it is that this plane is also fundamentally from the 1970s.
sosodev•14m ago
The MD-11 was developed after that crash. Shouldn't its design and maintenance procedures have been informed by the incident?
londons_explore•31m ago
I was under the impression that a plane could deal with an engine failure at any point in flight - including during takeoff.

Dropping an engine entirely is a similar situation to a failure - with the benefit that you now have a substantially lighter if imbalanced aircraft.

Should this plane have been able to fly by design even with an engine fallen off?

lotsofpulp•29m ago
It didn’t fall off, it flew up and then landed back on the plane.

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1p276xx/ntsb_issu...

buildsjets•26m ago
And also ripped open a giant hole in the fuel tank which allowed all of the fuel to be released and ignited.
baggy_trough•28m ago
Yes, but when the engine came off, it also disrupted the third engine in the tail. Can't take off in this model with 2 out of 3 engines gone.
jeffbee•22m ago
Even if they had the thrust (doubtful) there wouldn't be enough lift with a gaping hole in the leading edge of one wing.
sq_•8m ago
Yeah, if they had had more altitude, I would guess that this would have looked even more like the AA 191 crash from 1979, with the left wing stalling and causing a roll and pitch down.

That in turn reminds me of the DHL flight out of Baghdad in 2003 that was hit by a missile [0]. Absolutely amazing that they managed to keep it together and land with damage like that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Baghdad_DHL_attempted_sho...

bunderbunder•20m ago
Yeah, pilots I know saw puffs of flame coming out of the engine, and said that that's a tell-tale sign of a compressor stall. Which could have been caused by debris from the separating left engine striking the turbine.
jpk2f2•25m ago
Not only did it happen at the worst possible moment, it took out a second engine on it's way out and over the plane. Two engines should've been enough to get off the ground and potentially land the plane, but one engine on a trijet isn't enough.
yuvadam•4m ago
El Al 1862 was another flight [1] that had an engine fall off, taking another engine out with it. The pilots managed to fly around for a few minutes and attempt a landing, but there was too much structural damage.

It doesn't seem aircraft are designed to survive these types of catastrophic failures.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862

Bender•3m ago
[delayed]
chimpontherun•23m ago
surprised to see typos in aviation terms and acronyms: ADS-8 (page 3) and 747-BF (page 5)
ynniv•19m ago
pretty weird...

  NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFEN'BOAFID
  :J11...:i= of ArutiOn SMel@LA5 301
  A.,r Tral1C.IYU';UQlt-Ort!!
  NTS,B ri@ss @at.Joo JurtJer
  DCA26 22\C2<
maxbond•8m ago
These all seem like OCR errors...? Why would there be OCR in this workflow? Did they print this out and then generate a PDF from a scan instead of the original source? To maintain an air gap maybe?
Denvercoder9•8m ago
Swapping B and 8 in both cases, which is typically something that happens with OCR. Weird.
rft•22m ago
Grounding all MD-11s and DC-10s is a major move. I guess it makes sense as a big factor was the fatigue cracks on the pylon (lugs), despite the pylon not being behind on inspections. I am wondering what the inspections of pylons in other planes will yield, likely that will determine whether the grounding will continue.

But beyond figuring out why the engine mount failed, I am very interested in what caused the actual crash. "Just" losing thrust in a single engine is usually not enough to cause a crash, the remaining engine(s) have enough margin to get the plane airborne. Of course this was a major structural failure and might have caused additional damage.

EDIT: It seems there was damage to the engine in the tail, even though this was not specified in the preliminary report, likely because it has not been sufficiently confirmed yet.

SteveNuts•17m ago
Even if they end the grounding of the MD-11/DC-10 I'd be shocked if any airlines still using them will continue to use them.

Seems like the risk/reward just isn't really there for the few of them still in service, and if anything happened it would be a PR nightmare on top of a tragedy.

Definitely an end of an era!

mandevil•4m ago
I think that the Mad Dogs only exist as freighters (or their derivative KC-10 tankers) these days. I think the last pax service for any of them was over a decade ago.

And air freight just gets a lot less public attention, I think they are going to keep flying them if they don't get grounded.

bunderbunder•13m ago
And if the failure of a wing engine can cause the rear engine to fail, that would raise concerns about all "two in front one in back" trijets. Similar to how putting the Space Shuttle orbiter's heat shield directly in the line of fire for debris that comes off he rocket during launch turned out to be a bit of a problem.
lazide•5m ago
Based on the original descriptions of the crash, I assumed the engine fell off.

From the photos, it’s clear it went up over the wing and impacted the fuselage with a (at least) minor explosion, which would have thrown foreign objects into the third engine in the tail for sure.

Losing 2/3 of the engines isn’t survivable on takeoff for this class of plane, at the weights they were at.

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