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Make Trust Irrelevant: A Gamer's Take on Agentic AI Safety

https://github.com/Deso-PK/make-trust-irrelevant
2•DesoPK•3m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Sem – Semantic diffs and patches for Git

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Protocol Validation with Affine MPST in Rust

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Female Asian Elephant Calf Born at the Smithsonian National Zoo

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Why Are There Still So Many Jobs? The History and Future of Workplace Automation [pdf]

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The Search Engine Map

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Real-Time ETL for Enterprise-Grade Data Integration

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Economics Puzzle Leads to a New Understanding of a Fundamental Law of Physics

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Switzerland's Extraordinary Medieval Library

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A new comet was just discovered. Will it be visible in broad daylight?

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ESR: Comes the news that Anthropic has vibecoded a C compiler

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If CNN Covered Star Wars

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AI agents from 4 labs predicting the Super Bowl via prediction market

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Octave GTM MCP Server

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Voyager CEO says space data center cooling problem still needs to be solved

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1•belter•1h ago•0 comments
Open in hackernews

What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01800-9
45•Hooke•2mo ago

Comments

brudgers•2mo ago
Consider 4'33".

"Universal music cognition" requires a strong exclusionary premise about what counts as music and more importantly what doesn't count as music.

Sure maybe you don't consider 4'33" music. That does not mean other people do not experience it as music in the normal ways people can experience music such as buying tickets, putting on fancy clothes and sitting in a performance space at an appointed time and as an excuse to go out to dinner and/or on a date.

But if your musical interest extends much beyond a Methodist hymnal, there are probably people who will opine that the subject of those interests are not "real" music.

To be clear, I am not opining that *4'33" is or isn't "real" music. Only that in a scientific context, there is no objective way to distinguish between music and non-music. Some cultures have practices that we can label "music" but within the culture they do not play a language game that includes the label "music."

Which is to say that any ecumenical approach to music in a scientific context is so broad as to be meaningless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3

wisty•2mo ago
I think music is more universal than you suggest (or people may think you're suggesting).

Trying to classify things as music is a normative approach - saying what music should be. There's always exceptions to rules, as you point out, and people will always disagree and find exceptions.

The article is a descriptive approach - it studies what people think music is.

You can treat music as information. If it's not information, it's just noise.

Sometimes it has a low information density. People like to sing along to stuff they recognise. Sometimes it has higher density - a surprise bit of syncopation or an unusual note. Music is a variation in pitch and rhythm (etc) that is boring enough (in the context of the priors) to be familiar, but not too boring.

OTOH look at how tone poems flopped. There are patterns that are naturally easier to learn - rhythms (in the article) and maybe scales and harmonies (though this is clearly a bit more complex - not every culture has the old Mesopotamian diatonic scales that the Pythagorians formalised). But like Chomsky theorised with grammar, there might be defaults (or a range of defaults) that humans are naturally drawn to as the priors.

pontusrehula•2mo ago
> You can treat music as information. If it's not information, it's just noise.

In information theory we have:

A message has maximal information content if (and only if) its symbols are statistically indistinguishable from random noise.

Noise or noise-like elements are also important part of many kinds of music.

robot-wrangler•2mo ago
This is why a better acronym for IDM is Information Dense Music, it's less pretentious and it explains why it's very close to noise ;)

Of course, I'd argue Bach and Debussy are very information-dense too but they somehow manage to stay uncluttered. The really great thing about music is that encodes information on many different levels, Claude Shannon notwithstanding

js8•2mo ago
Working in an almost open office, 4 and half minutes of silence is a music to my ears. :-) If anything it should be longer.
Uhhrrr•2mo ago
433 was more of a statement/exercise in listening. It's interesting to explore the edges of what counts as music, but in practice, people can tell when something is music made for enjoyment by other people.
telesilla•2mo ago
Enjoyment is a strong word! Some music is written to share ideas and experiments, so it might not be 'enjoyable' to listen to, but 'interesting' - kind of like the difference between reading a Harry Potter book which is engaging and doesn't ask too much of you, and Spinoza, which requires your full attention.
Libidinalecon•2mo ago
I forget anyone takes 4'33" seriously.

Imagine a chef making a dish of just an empty plate. It is just stupid. Even the biggest food hipsters wouldn't fall for something that stupid.

At some point one should have listened to enough music in their life to call 4'33" out for the bullshit that it is.

spider-mario•2mo ago
This sounds like a potential continuum fallacy.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argumen...

hmokiguess•2mo ago
Very interesting problem to even consider. That said, I don’t think we even understand the what, how, and why of music. The rhythm precognition aspect mentioned in another comment makes me think it’s just a byproduct of time and counting with pattern recognition, not necessarily a music thing just a correlation by virtue of physics and the laws of the universe.
GuinansEyebrows•2mo ago
for a really illuminating look into some of the more "social" aspects of this field of study, i would highly recommend the book "Musicking" by Christopher Small [0].

it dives into many ways that humans interact with and experience music, using the foil of classical western concert music against many other forms of traditional and popular music (including the popular phase of what's now considered classical).

really interesting stuff!

[0]: https://www.weslpress.org/9780819572240/musicking/