frontpage.
newsnewestaskshowjobs

Made with ♥ by @iamnishanth

Open Source @Github

fp.

Open in hackernews

Running on Empty: Copper

https://thehonestsorcerer.substack.com/p/running-on-empty-copper
18•the-needful•1h ago

Comments

chemotaxis•1h ago
I think the author is speaking authoritatively about things they may be less familiar with, or where they really want to push a particular doomsday / degrowth agenda (the only prescription at the end the article is that we need to stop technological progress). This paragraph in particular caught my eye:

> Bah! Who needs copper anyway, when we have so much aluminum?! > Have you thought about how aluminum is made? Well, by driving immense electric currents through carbon anodes made from petroleum coke (or coal-tar pitch) to turn molten alumina into pure metal via electrolysis. Two things to notice here. First, the necessary electricity (and the anodes) are usually made with fossil fuels, as “renewables” cannot provide the stable current and carbon atoms needed to make the process possible. Second, all that electricity, even if you generate it with nuclear reactors, have to be delivered via copper wires.

This seems to be trying to say that we can't make aluminum without copper, but that seems nonsensical. First, power can be delivered by wires made out of aluminum and indeed, it often is - I don't think that much of the transmission grid is copper. Second, the comparatively tiny amount of material needed for electrodes is a completely wacky argument. And renewables not being able to provide "the stable current" needed for smelting?

I'm not cherrypicking here, there's a lot of assertions of this type in the article. Essentially, everything is doomed and there's nothing we can do, because we're going to run out of copper. And fossil fuels. And there's absolutely nothing that can replace them, ever. And therefore, we shouldn't build AI datacenters? That's what it says...

morkalork•1h ago
I don't know about other countries but in Canada, I can think of a few aluminum smelting operations and they're all geolocated in close proximity to hydroelectric dams.
auspiv•1h ago
Other countries are very much the same. Almost always located near giant hydroelectric generation facilities. Brazil + Russia are two big ones that come to mind. Probably China too.
wat10000•25m ago
Iceland has a massive amount of geothermal and hydroelectricity. A large portion of that electricity is exported in the form of aluminum.
PlunderBunny•59m ago
In New Zealand, a hydroelectric dam was effectively build for an aluminium smelter [0]

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwai_Point_Aluminium_Smelter

quickthrowman•1h ago
> First, no, power can be delivered by wires made out of aluminum and indeed, it often is, I don't think that much of the transmission grid is copper

Seconded, aluminum works just fine as a conductor. I’m pretty sure that all overhead utility distribution conductors are a steel core wrapped with aluminum conductors and air for insulation, and I’d bet that underground distribution conductors are also aluminum.

SER cable from the utility transformer secondary to your meter socket also uses aluminum conductors.

You usually need to go up a couple of sizes for aluminum vs copper (#1/0 Cu ~= #3/0 Al) but it depends on the specific ampacity.

pfdietz•52m ago
> as “renewables” cannot provide the stable current

Stopped reading right after that nonsense.

SyzygyRhythm•41m ago
Indeed.

Aluminum is actually a (far) superior conductor to copper per unit mass. It would be used on transmission lines even if it was the same price as copper, because the towers can be cheaper and farther apart. It's in increasing use in EVs due to the lower mass.

Copper is still used when the conductive density matters, like the windings of an electric motor. But if copper prices increase further, manufacturers will make sacrifices to efficiency and power density in order to save cost. And they'll figure out how to better balance the use of Al vs. Cu, perhaps using Cu only for the conductors closest to the core.

We also use copper for transformers, which are fairy "dumb" in their usual design. Solid-state transformers exist, which use much less copper, but are currently more expensive. They will no longer be more expensive if the price of copper goes up too much. And they'll probably get cheaper in the long run anyway, regardless of copper price, in the same way that switch mode power supplies have totally replaced linear supplies in the consumer space.

I've seen increasing use of copper in fairly mundane uses, like computer heat sinks, that used to be aluminum. The performance is a little better, but it won't be worthwhile if copper gets way more expensive. They'll just go back to aluminum, or use some other innovation (carbon heat spreaders, etc.) if price becomes an issue.

scythe•40m ago
>This seems to be trying to say that we can't make aluminum without copper, but that seems nonsensical.

The far better argument is that, if it were simple to replace copper with aluminum, this would create a ceiling on the price of copper. However, this hasn't happened. Many applications of copper can theoretically be replaced by copper, but in practice the reactivity and thermal performance issues of aluminum can be challenging. Aluminum wiring in homes, for example, has a very bad reputation.

This isn't fatal, but it is a problem. And if society doesn't plan for it, it could become a more painful problem.

quickthrowman•16m ago
> Aluminum wiring in homes, for example, has a very bad reputation.

It has an undeserved bad reputation. The problem wasn’t solely the aluminum conductors themselves, it was also the terminals on wiring devices. The material the terminals and screws were made out of worked fine with copper, but the thermal expansion profile did not work well with aluminum conductors. That caused arcing and fires, so the wiring device manufacturers figured out a material that works well with both copper and aluminum for wiring device terminations. Wire manufacturers also made changes to ensure better terminations. If you look at the terminals of a light switch or receptacle, it will say Cu/Al on it, signifying it is suitable for use with either type of conductor. This was solved 50 years ago.

For existing installations of pre-1972 wire, you can buy splicing devices (similar to a WAGO lever nut) that connect to the aluminum conductors inside the box and allow you to connect a copper pigtail to the wiring device, you also have to use an anti-oxidant grease to prevent oxidation.

That being said, I’d still wire a house with copper because you can use #14 Cu for a 15A circuit but you need #12 Al for the same circuit, the NEC does not allow use of #14 Al romex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_building_wiring

> In North American residential construction, aluminum wire was used for wiring entire houses for a short time from the 1960s to the mid-1970s during a period of high copper prices. Electrical devices (outlets, switches, lighting, fans, etc.) at the time were not designed with the particular properties of the aluminum wire being used in mind, and there were some issues related to the properties of the wire itself, making the installations with aluminum wire much more susceptible to problems. Revised manufacturing standards for both the wire and the devices were developed to reduce the problems. Existing homes with this older aluminum wiring used in branch circuits present a potential fire hazard.

AnimalMuppet•8m ago
> Aluminum wiring in homes, for example, has a very bad reputation.

Not just in homes. The U50C tried aluminum wiring in railroad locomotives. That also got a bad reputation.

parliament32•1h ago
Something I could use some clarification on:

> Even though the industry would be willing to pay top dollar for each pound of metal delivered, there is simply not much more to be found. Copper bearing formations are not popping up at random, and there is no point in drilling various spots on Earth prospecting for deposits, either. The major formations have already been discovered, and thus the ever increasing investment spent on locating more copper simply does not produce a return.

How do we "know" there isn't any major formations we haven't found yet? I find it hard to believe we've prospected every possible area.. or are deposits more predictable than it seems?

DoneWithAllThat•54m ago
We don’t know. The entire article is garbage.
defrost•31m ago
The mining majors, BHP, Rio Tinto, et al have petabytes of surface geochemistry, samples, near surface magnetic maps that penetrate into the crust, 3D seismic maps, drill cores, technical reports on every mine ever, surrounding geology, and good models on where economic feasible (at particular price points) amounts of desirable metals can be found.

For example, there are only so many places significant masses of porphyry copper deposit will be found (although these aren't the only types of copper deposit).

For people interested in subscribing, there are databases such as the S&P portal that scratch some of that industry knowledge.

https://www.spglobal.com/en/research-insights/market-insight...

although they seem to have backed off from a public page about the GIS portal to the mining databases they purchased.

So; pretty much most areas have been scratched - Antartica is still open, the Artic has possibilities .. but should we.

There are known untapped masses of copper, eg: in the US there's a mass that will take 64 years to mine .. that's on Indian land so, you know, it'll be US history all over again poking that one.

Why does New Zealand take such a long summer holiday break?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/life/lifestyle/why-does-new-zealand-take-such-a-long-summer-holiday-break
3•billybuckwheat•2m ago•0 comments

Simplifying Quines

https://blog.phronemophobic.com/quineize.html
1•refset•3m ago•0 comments

Chrome removes middle click on new-tab button to open URL from clipboard

https://issues.chromium.org/issues/457495649
1•subleq•3m ago•0 comments

Looking for Badass Front Dev

https://www.beycome.com/
1•The-Patriot•8m ago•0 comments

Paramount launches rival bid for Warner Bros Discovery

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj69xzpzrdyo
2•colinprince•10m ago•1 comments

iPhone Users in Japan Can Now Send Messages via Satellite

https://www.macrumors.com/2025/12/08/japan-messages-via-satellite/
2•mikhael•11m ago•0 comments

It's ~2026 –. ChatGPT still doesn't allow email change

https://help.openai.com/en/articles/4936827-how-to-change-your-email-address
12•amukbils•21m ago•8 comments

Safety services for recreational vessels conducting ocean passages

https://passageguardian.nz/
1•monerozcash•22m ago•0 comments

How to Not Be Replaced by AI

https://www.maxberry.ca/p/how-to-not-be-replaced-by-ai
2•johnedwards_fb•22m ago•0 comments

Nvidia can sell H200 chips to China for 25% U.S. share

https://www.axios.com/2025/12/08/trump-nvidia-200-chips
3•gmays•28m ago•0 comments

Prompt Engineering for Vibecoding MVP Quicker

https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/promptify/gbdneaodlcoplkbpiemljcafpghcelld
2•Krish-mal15•32m ago•2 comments

Is there any value from "coming soon" placeholders?

1•sshadmand•33m ago•0 comments

Prediction: AI will make formal verification go mainstream

https://martin.kleppmann.com/2025/12/08/ai-formal-verification.html
1•raphlinus•33m ago•0 comments

Best Japanese Learning Tools 2025 Award Show

https://skerritt.blog/best-japanese-learning-tools-2025-award-show/
3•wahnfrieden•40m ago•0 comments

Israel Pumps Desalinated Water into Depleted Sea of Galilee

https://humanprogress.org/in-world-first-israel-begins-pumping-desalinated-water-into-depleted-se...
6•geox•40m ago•1 comments

Show HN: Chrome Extension and Spreadsheet that replaced our $10k/y support desk

https://tatomo.com
1•mareksotak•41m ago•0 comments

I Know Why Lying about AI Water Use Is So Easy [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc
2•Topfi•43m ago•0 comments

A.I. Videos Have Flooded Social Media. No One Was Ready

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/08/business/ai-slop-sora-social-media.html
8•xnx•52m ago•2 comments

Plaintext Casa – A decentralized social network

https://plaintext.casa/
2•koehr•53m ago•1 comments

Multibase CLI

http://www.chriswarbo.net/blog/2025-12-07-multibase_cli.html
1•chriswarbo•53m ago•0 comments

This Century, Child Mortality Is Likely to Rise

https://time.com/7338791/childhood-mortality-increasing-gates-foundation/
4•gok•54m ago•1 comments

Microsoft wants to fix app updates – new orchestrator to make updates invisible

https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/microsoft-wants-to-fix-app-updates-on-windows...
1•zathan•55m ago•0 comments

Guardian Editorial on Geoengineering

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/dec/08/the-guardian-view-on-solar-geoengineering-a...
1•dr_dshiv•56m ago•0 comments

Why the Sanitizer API is just `setHTML()`

https://frederikbraun.de/why-sethtml.html
1•birdculture•57m ago•0 comments

A battle against arsenic toxicity by Earth's earliest complex life forms

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-59760-9
1•QueensGambit•59m ago•0 comments

Poland arrests Ukrainians utilizing 'advanced' hacking equipment

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/poland-arrests-ukrainians-utilizing-advanced-hacki...
5•c420•1h ago•2 comments

Release Notes for Safari Technology Preview 233

https://webkit.org/blog/17635/release-notes-for-safari-technology-preview-233/
1•feross•1h ago•0 comments

CISA's Mobile Communications Best Practice Guidance [pdf]

https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/2025-11/guidance-mobile-communications-best-practices-20...
1•embedding-shape•1h ago•0 comments

Multifunctional retinal phantom for standardizing ophthalmic imaging systems

https://www.nature.com/articles/s44172-025-00475-6
1•PaulHoule•1h ago•0 comments

Universal Probabilistic Daily Reminder Coordination System for Anything

https://github.com/TypicalHog/randevu
1•TypicalHog•1h ago•0 comments