How dare some nobody in a third world country use AI resources to accelerate the development of some process that fixes an issue for them and occasionally ask you to buy them a coffee when a poor sad pathetic evil worthless hateful disgusting miserable useless 5 trillion dollar company that actively hates you does the same thing with worse results that makes your life more miserable while lining their pockets with every penny in the entire world?!
As long as it works and people’s problems are solved, I don’t see any issue with it?
I'm certain that's not true. AI is the single biggest gift we could possible give to people who are learning to program - it's shaved that learning curve down to a point where you don't need to carve out six months of your life just to get to a point where you can build something small and useful that works.
AI only hurts learning if you let it. You can still use AI and learn effectively if you are thoughtful about the way you apply it.
100% rejecting AI as a learner programmer may feel like the right thing to do, but at this point it's similar to saying "I'm going to learn to program without ever Googling for anything at all".
(I do not yet know how to teach people to learn effectively with AI though. I think that's a very important missing piece of this whole puzzle.)
I'm a BIG fan of these three points though:
rewrite the parts you understand
learn the parts you don’t
make it so you can reason about every detail
> AI overuse hurts you:
> - if you’re doing this for your own learning: you will learn better without AI.
So they're calling out "AI overuse", and I agree with that - that's where the skill comes in of deciding how to use AI to help your learning in a way that doesn't damage that learning process.
Needlessly to say there is no consensus. I err on the side of photobashing personally.
I think it's possible that for learning a 90% accuracy rate is MORE helpful than 100%. If it gets things wrong 1/10th of the time it means you have to think critically about everything it tells you. That's a much better way to approach any source of information than blindly trusting it.
The key to learning is building your own robust mental model, from multiple sources of information. Treat the LLM as one of those sources, not the exclusive source, and you should be fine.
I think that's very important.
Never mind six months; with AI, "you" can "build" something small and useful that works in six minutes. But "you" almost certainly didn't learn anything, and I think it's quite questionable if "you" "built" something.
I have found AI to be a great tool for learning, but I see it -- me, personally -- as a very slippery slope into not learning at all. It is so easy, so trivial, to produce a (seemingly accurate) answer to just about any question whatsoever, no matter how mundane or obscure, that I can really barely engage my own thinking at all.
On one hand, with the goal of obtaining an answer to a question quickly, it's awesome.
On the other hand, I feel like I have learned almost nothing at all. I got precisely, pinpointed down, the exact answer to the question I asked. Going through more traditional means of learning -- looking things up in books, searching web sites, reading tutorials, etc. -- I end up with my answer, but I also end up with more context, and a deeper+broader understanding of the overall problem space.
Can I get that with AI? You bet. And probably even better, in some respects. But I have to deliberately choose to. It's way too easy to just grab the exact answer I wanted and be on my way.
I feel like that is both good and bad. I don't want to be too dismissive of the good, but I also feel like it would be unwise to ignore the bad.
Whoa hey though, isn't this just exactly like books? Didn't, like, Plato and all them Greek cats centuries ago say that writing things down would ruin our brains, and what I'm claiming here is 100% the same thing? I don't think so. I see it as a matter of scale. It's a similar effect -- you probably do lose something (whether if it's valuable or not is debatable) when you choose to rely on written words rather than memorize. But it's tiny. With our modern AI tools, there is potential to lose out on much more. You can -- you don't have to, but you can -- do way more coasting, mentally. You can pretty much coast nonstop now.
I think you learned something critically important: that the thing you wanted to build is feasible to build.
A lot of ideas people have are not possible to build. You can't prove a negative but you CAN prove a positive: seeing a version of the thing you want to exist running in front of you is a big leap forward from pondering if it could be built.
That's a useful thing to learn.
The other day, at brunch, I had Claude Code on my phone add webcam support (with pinch-to-zoom) to my https://tools.simonwillison.net/is-it-a-bird is-it-a-bird CLIP-in-your-browser app. I didn't even have to look at the code it wrote to learn that it's possible for Mobile Safari to render the webcam input in a box on the page (not full screen) and to have a rough pinch-to-zoom mechanism work - it's pixelated, not actual-camera-zoom, but for a CLIP app that's fine because the zoom is really just to try and exclude things from the image that aren't a potential bird.
(The prompts I used for this are quoted in the PR description: https://github.com/simonw/tools/pull/175)
> Can I get that with AI? You bet. And probably even better, in some respects. But I have to deliberately choose to. It's way too easy to just grab the exact answer I wanted and be on my way.
100% agree with that. You need a lot of self-discipline to learn effectively with AI. I'd argue you need self-discipline to learn via other means as well though.
Cognitive bandwidth is limited, and if you need to fully understand and get through 10 different errors before anything works, that's a massive barrier to entry. If you're going to be using those tools professionally then eventually you'll want to learn more about how they work, but frontloading a bunch of adjacent tooling knowledge is the quickest way to kill someone's interest.
The standard choice isn't usually between a high-quality project and slopware, it's between slopware or nothing at all.
You mean it cannot be overstated?
When it inevitably all comes crashing down because there was no actual software architecture or understanding of the code, someone will have to come in to make the actual product.
Hopefully by then we will have realistic expectations for the LLM, have skilled up, and we as a community treat them as just another feature in the IDE.
My experience has been more that they expect you to fix the broken mess, not rebuild it properly.
But beyond that, I'm really not looking forward to trying to discover new good libraries, tools, and such in 5 years time. The signal to noise is surely dropping.
This is not the distinction I would want to tell newcomers. AI is extremely good for finding out what the most common practices are for all kinds of situations. That's a powerful learning tool. Besides, learning how to use a tool well (one that we can expect professionals to use) is part of learning.
Now most common practices and best practices are two different things. They are often the same, but not always. That's the major caveat for many fields, but if you can keep it in mind, you're going to do OK.
I would say to at least just read what the AI does and ask it questions if you don't understand what it did. You can interactively learn software development from AI in a way that you cannot from a human simply because it won't run out of patience even if it will lie to you.
The results depend mostly on how you use it.
Students
Activists
Hyper opinionated and “principled” engineers (that won’t touch AI)
University professors
Engineers working with Linux and Free software who hate AI.
They all secretly use ChatGPT when it launched and still do.
you'll understand the first time you lose half an hour evaluating a library that has all the old signs of competent design and even the trivial examples don't work and you realize the project was generated and you've had your time completely wasted
- Submission based magazines, who pay their writers, like Clarkesworld for example, are being flooded with LLM generated submissions. Those have been automated by people who hit every magazines multiple times with the hope that one makes it through and make a few bucks. This made the work of reviewer absolute hell, their volume of work multiplied by 10.
- The same is true with music, fake bands are being created and the music submitted to streaming platform with the hope that it will generate some kind of passive income
- Etsy shops are absolutely filled to the brim with bad AI slop, the whole platform became barely usable anymore
The same thing is absolutely true with software. You make is sound like it's a few hobbyist that are using AI tools to solve problems and that evil engineers are gatekeeping them because they want to be the only one mastering the arcane arts, but that's overly simplistic and frankly, intellectually dishonest, even if you set aside the fact that at some point one of those vibe coders is going the bite more that they can chew and expose their users, the vast majority of them is looking at making money easily, that means flooding the market with subpar software in hope to generate some money. Just browse a few of the vibe coders subreddits or discord channel to see that it's mostly what is being discussed.
And, I know I'm not the only one that noticed that over reliance on LLMs has some bad consequences on people, especially juniors. Yes it can be used properly in a productive way, but a lot of people don't bother. Make fun of people who are worried about it all you want, but for all the good gen AI will bring, there absolutely will be an enshitification of about everything. I won't even talk about the golden opportunity it is for scammers and malicious agents. I don't know if it'll be worth it, possibly ? But there will be a price to pay.
Are they scared for their jobs? Angry that their hard earned skills are getting devalued? Genuinely concerned about copyright violations in LLM training? Or just don’t want the world to change? (Kids get off my lawn!)
Regardless, what's confusing about the list of problems you gave? Are you implying they are somehow un-real in all contexts? The reference to political news is also confusing.
AI submissions are getting hate because the code isn't good and isn't designed well and the person submitting it would also know that, if they understood what the LLM wrote. Hell, maybe they could even re-architect it into something worth submitting in the first place.
I use AI tools semi-frequently, to get answers, to riddle problems, all kinds of stuff. However if you just punch directions into ChatGPT and copy/paste the answer, you are not growing as a dev, you are not learning, and yeah your code is probably shit. Not sorry.
Edit: And I feel it's an under-observed point that AI-dependent devs constantly try and hide the fact that they are doing exactly that: copying from ChatGPT, because they also know it's shit and they will be judged. So just... STOP DOING IT.
But if I need a quick tool, like a secret Santa name picker, I’ll just have Claude build it, push it to a repo, link the repo on some PaaS and have a working, deployed app in 20 minutes. No ads, no accounts & no signing up to random websites. I can build it exactly like I want it and include fun Easter eggs for my family.
Building it myself would take 2-3 hours, and the code quality would be drastically better, but that just doesn’t matter.
And before anybody gets high-and-mighty, I know because I write these too. On 4chan.
There is no need to be so prescriptive about how software is made. In the end the best will win on the merits. The bad software will die under its own weight with no think pieces necessary.
On the other hand, code might be becoming more like clay than like LEGO bricks. The sculptor is not minding each granule.
We don't know yet if there's long term merit in this new way of crafting software and telling people not to try it both won't work, and honestly looks like old people yelling at clouds.
I get what you're saying, but the irony is that AI tools have sort of frozen the state of the art of software development in time. There is now less incentive to innovate on language design, code style, patterns, etc., when it goes outside the range of what an LLM has been trained on and will produce.
It’s a tool. No one cares about code quality because the person using your code isn’t affected by it. There are better and worse tools. No one cares whether a car is made with SnapOn tools or milled on HAAS machines. Only that it functions.
We know there is no long term merit to this idea just looking back at the last 40 years of coding.
At least it feels a bit like it
> When you publish something under the banner of open–source, you implicitly enter a stewardship role. You’re not just shipping files, you’re making a contribution to a shared commons. That carries certain responsibilities: clarity about purpose, honesty about limitations, and a basic alignment with the community’s collaborative ethos.
(from the second link)
You're not just writing angry screeds, you are producing slop prose and asking us to spend our time reading it.
How is this not an implicit repudiation of your entire argument? Are you not hurting yourself by avoiding learning how to write better?
Like “you will learn better without AI” is just a bad short sighted opinion dressed up in condescension to appear wise and authoritative.
Learn your tools, learn the limitations, understand where this is going, do the things you want to do and then realize “hey my opinions don’t have to be condescendingly preached to other people as though they are facts”
I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all.
It feels like the group I was part of was just a mirage, a historical accident. Maybe craft-painters felt the same way about the camera.
Plus, code-based meritocracy flat-out doesn't exist outside the FOSS circle. Many of the people you know are clocking-in at a job using a tech stack from 2004, they aren't paid to recognize good craftsmanship. They show up, close some tickets, play Xbox during on-call and collect their paycheck on Friday.
The people who care might be self-selecting for their own failure. It's hard to make money in tech if your passion for craft is your strongest attribute.
tonymet•1h ago
The best way to resolve this is to write man-made software that’s good quality.
It’s just a tool