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Code Is Clay

https://campedersen.com/code-is-clay
56•ecto•11h ago

Comments

emilsedgh•8h ago
It's funny how it went from "everything needs to be strongly typed" and "even C++ isn't enough we need Rust for everything" to this...

A good chunk of our profession is just hype-followers at this point.

maegul•8h ago
Also, not just followers. There’s a kinda “merchant” behaviour too I think … signalling and trading in hype perspectives.

But to be fair, I’m not sure what the average dev/eng is supposed to do against a climate of regular change, many disparate opinionated groups with disparate tech stacks, and, IMO a pretty ~~pure~~ poor engineering culture of actually weighing the value of tech/methods against relevant constraints and trade offs.

rickydroll•24m ago
Yeah I described trends in software development is like the length of skirts. They both have the same logic behind the changes. But I don't consider type systems to be hype. I think they're frequently poorly implemented with a mathematically illiterate notation but they're so damn useful went done reasonably right

Most of my understanding on type systems comes from taking a course on the calculation of programs from the author of this book.

To be blunt, this course and the understanding this book gave me crystallized why I was unhappy with the current state of software development and it was one more nudge pushing me out of the field. I caution others that reading and understanding this book may change your understanding of the software development world enough that you don't want to be part of it either.

Programming in the 1990s: An Introduction to the Calculation of Programs | Springer Nature Link (formerly SpringerLink) https://share.google/K81ZlVTbfoR2oeYLh

bossyTeacher•7h ago
> Honestly I think I'm going to like it more. I got into programming because I liked building things, not because I wanted to type boilerplate for the rest of my life.

Sounds to me like OP wanted to be the executive ordering his engineer team to build something rather than him being the engineer that actually builds it.

Also, "But clay didn't go away. Ceramics studios are everywhere now. People pay good money to throw pots on weekends.". What misguided statement. The population of full-time pottery workers didn't all open studios (likely a tiny percentage but it is more likely that the pottery studio people do not come from a pottery factory background) and those who opened them are likely not able to obtain a full-time equivalent level of income by catering to people like OP.

The article reads like a privileged person who lacks the ability to empathize with the disenfranchised.

ecto•6h ago
Harsh words bossyTeacher.

I don't think you're right though.

Please consider the human next time :)

analog8374•7h ago
Actually, clay does not require an intellect, whereas code does. That's a world of difference. Code is vastly crude, relatively speaking, in that way.
ecto•6h ago
My dog is a fantastic potter.
danielheath•4h ago
Have you ever tried to make anything nontrivial out of clay? It’s not intellectually straightforward merely because it’s done with your hands.
analog8374•4h ago
Ya, I have.

Instead of looking for why I'm wrong, look for why I'm right.

thfuran•2h ago
Why are you right?
Avicebron•7h ago
I wish the author could address whether or not people can buy a house and raise a family by making hypercubes. The potter was able to make cups and pots because that's what the people needed. In this future of manufactured ceramics the author envisions, what is the material reality who dedicated themselves to the craft of pottery? How many ceramic factories do we really need?
ecto•6h ago
Sure. You could buy a house and raise a family by making hypercubes. It won't be easy though.

I have empathy for my fellow potters. But to deny the factory down the street exists is foolish.

hahahahhaah•2h ago
A house is a hypercube that houses 1000s of people.
vineyardmike•1h ago
I think the author also misses that humans still make mugs. They're just low-skill, low-craft jobs in a factory instead. The parts that easy have been automated, while humans still handle the tough bits. The jobs have also been centralized and moved to a factory in a third-world country instead of being distributed, in every other town across the world.

To push <profession> the way of the potter is to commodify it, underpay the workers while draining the job of its craft and creativity. Then charge comparably wealthy people for the privilege of doing it for 2hrs a week as a recreational activity. A dozen people in major cities can get really good at it then have boutique studios where they charge wealthy people 100x the commodified price to be able to buy the same product but locally made.

We can't easily close Pandora's box of globalism and automation, but let's not glorify the destruction of craft and artisanship without recognition of the trade society made.

asmor•11m ago
It seems silly to blame globalism and automation. These should be good things. More production with less should be good. There is another culprit, one that has been smoldering for centuries. Most creative work has already been commodified, because capitalism is incapable of seeing value in art other than what is can be exploited for and the system is very unkind to whomever is not productive in a very specific way. AI is just very potent accelerant.

I guess it really is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.

disqard•6h ago
The title of this blog post immediately reminded me of "Big Ball of Mud":

http://laputan.org/mud/

appplication•6h ago
That was a fun read, maybe worthy of its own post (presumably again, if it’s been long enough)
sea-gold•6h ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46571730
somewhereoutth•6h ago
I feel that this article (like many other endeavors) has been derailed by the whole AI thing. Let's ignore that part.

The major point is that yes both clay and code are mediums for expression and they have advantages and drawbacks - for expression, for monetization, for utility and so on. I myself are quite interested in how these (and other) different mediums affect the author (artist/designer/potter/coder etc) in how they think, what they think about, and how that mediates their relation with the world around them - and indeed the consequent cultures emerging therein.

culi•5h ago
Sweet visuals! How'd you do them?
ecto•4h ago
Hey Culi thanks, it's all react-three-fiber! https://github.com/ecto/campedersen.com/blob/master/src/post...
culi•44m ago
Hey Cam :) Wasn't sure if you'd recognize me, long time no see!

That's awesome, I've got to start playing around with r3f. It seems your repo's private btw

heddycrow•5h ago
Imagine calling a circle a sphere. But a circle is 2D projection of a sphere.

I suppose we are comfortable calling a 3D projection of a hypercube by its 4D name because there really is no 4D context which we can readily slip into. That and no shorter name than "3D projection of a hypercube".

I'm not a mathematician and I'm certainly guilty of uncareful thinking. And I'm not certain that careful thinking and speech is always necessary.

Maybe I just missed the whole point of this article. I have a math fetish and IRL hobbies with my wife, now listen to what I have to say about what code and AI are up to?

Code is clay. Code is foam. Code is water. Code is paper. Code is wood.

Why can't it just be code? Is it that hard to conceptualize? Is the point of the article to rage-bait nerds by making a loose comparison that might not hold up under scrutiny?

Just grumbling in the hopes that someone else will grumble and I won't feel like the only one. My apologies to those who really needed to read this article and feel insulted by my take.

Geste•4h ago
The article did not do it for you. Do not apologize and thanks for sharing why he did not do it for you. It did not do it for me neither, for other reasons (I don't care that much about code, as a non-coder)

it's okay !

pixl97•1h ago
>Why can't it just be code? Is it that hard to conceptualize?

Because the transference of human intelligence is quite often done by analogy.

NooneAtAll3•4h ago
images don't work
bblaylock•3h ago
Is clay like code?

Clay comes from the earth, has great plastic deformation properties, and when heated sufficiently it turns to ceramic--whereafter it can never be turned back to clay. We humans have been doing ceramics for over 30,000 years. Yet, there is no undo in the process of pottery, and much of the process requires experience to know, in the most inexact sense of knowing, what the result will actually look like. Clay exists as a physical medium, and while knowledge of chemistry and physics can certainly inform your usage of clay, in actuality the chemical interactions that occur during a firing are still complicated enough that we in the industry still refer to them as "kiln magic".

Programming, conversely, is primarily a logical thought experiment. Most of the programs I have written have almost no physical representation. There is no material to coding, even assembly programmers work at the top of a heap of mental and physical abstractions. The process itself is rife with tooling between the user and the medium, correcting our mistakes and suggesting alternative ideas. There is always very quick feedback as to the result of a program. And the field, although still full of open questions, is largely well specified, in spite of it being an incredibly young field of study!

As far as mediums for expression go it would, in my opinion, be rare to find two that are more different. I can't help but think of the old phrase, "the map is not the territory."

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