LLMs can produce better code for languages and domains I’m not proficient in, at a much faster rate, but damn it’s rare I look at LLM output and don’t spot something I’d do measurably better.
These things are average text generation machines. Yes you can improve the output quality by writing a good prompt that activates the right weights, getting you higher quality output. But if you’re seeing output that is consistently better than what you produce by hand, you’re probably just below average at programming. And yes, it matters sometimes. Look at the number of software bugs we’re all subjected to.
And let’s not forget that code is a liability. Utilizing code that was “cheap” to generate has a cost, which I’m sure will be the subject of much conversation in the near future.
- it adds superfluous logic that is assumed but isn’t necessary
- as a result the code is more complex, verbose, harder to follow
- it doesn’t quite match the domain because it makes a bunch of assumptions that aren’t true in this particular domain
They’re things that can often be missed in a first pass look at the code but end up adding a lot of accidental complexity that bites you later.
When reading an unfamiliar code base we tend to assume that a certain bit of logic is there for a good reason, and that helps you understand what the system is trying to do. With generative codebases we can’t really assume that anymore unless the code has been thoroughly audited/reviewed/rewritten, at which point I find it’s easier to just write the code myself.
Coding aside, LLM's aren't very good at following nice practices in general unless explicitly prompted to. For example if you ask an LLM to create an error modal box from scratch, will it also implement the ability to select the text, or being able to ctrl c to copy the text, or perhaps a copy message button? Maybe this is a bad example, but they usually don't do things like this unless you explicitly ask them to. I don't personally care too much about this, but I think it's noteworthy in the context of lay people using LLM's to vibe code.
So, in short, LLMs write better code than I do. I'm not alone.
This is absolutely not true lol, as anyone who's worked with a fabled 10X engineer will tell you. It's like saying the best civil engineer is the one that builds the most bridges.
The best code looks real boring.
Some seniors love to bikeshed PRs all day because they can do it better but generally that activity has zero actual value. Sometimes it matters, often it doesn't.
Stop with the "I could do this better by hand" and ask "is it worth the extra 4 hours to do this by hand, or is this actually good enough to meet the goals?"
There's "okay for now" and then there's "this is so crap that if we set our bar this low we'll be knee deep in tech debt in a month".
A lot of LLM output in the specific areas _I_ work in is firmly in that latter category and many times just doesn't work.
Just like writing assembly is today.
It's let me apply my general knowledge across domains, and do things in tech stacks or languages I don't know well. But that has also cost me hours debugging a solution I don't quite understand.
When working in my core stack though it's a nice force multiplier for routine changes.
what's your core stack?
BUT
An LLM can write a PNG decoder that works in whatever language I choose in one or a few shots. I can do that too, but it will take me longer than a minute!
(and I might learn something about the png format that might be useful later..)
Also, us engineers can talk about code quality all day, but does this really matter to non-engineers? Maybe objectively it does, but can we convince them that it does?
What I got was an absolute mess that did not work at all. Perhaps this was because, in retrospect, BMP is not actually all that simple, a fact that I discovered when I did write a BMP decoder by hand. But I spent equal time vibe coding and real coding. At the end of the real coding session, I understood BMP, which I see as a benefit unto itself. This is perhaps a bit cynical but my hot take on vibe coders is that they place little value on understanding things.
The worst case I remember happened a few months ago when a staff (!) engineer gave a presentation about benchmarks they had done between Java and Kotlin concurrency tools and how to write concurrent code. There was a very large and strange difference in performance favoring Kotlin that didn't make sense. When I dug into their code, it was clear everything had been generated by a LLM (lots of comments with emojis, for example) and the Java code was just wrong.
The competent programmers I've seen there use LLMs to generate some shell scripts, small python automations or to explore ideas. Most of the time they are unimpressed by these tools.
That's hilarious LLM code is always very bad. It's only merit is it occasionally works.
> LLMs can produce better code for languages and domains I’m not proficient in.
I am sure that's not true.
We should feed the output code back in to get even better code.
even though this statement does not mathematically / statistically make sense - vast majority of SWEs are “below average.” therein lies the crux of this debate. I’ve been coding since the 90’s and:
- LLM output is better than mine from the 90’s
- LLM output is better than mine from early 2000’s
- LLM output is worse than any of mine from 2010 onward
- LLM output (in the right hands) is better than 90% of human-written code I have seen (and I’ve seen a lot)
Front end pages like a user settings page? Done. One shottable.
Nuanced data migration problems specific to your stack? You're going to be yelling at the agent.
> LLM evangelists - are you willing to admit that you just might not be that good at programming computers? Maybe you once were. Maybe you never were.
A bit harsh considering that many of us used knowledge bases like SO for so long to figure out new problems that we were confronting.
If as a SWE you see the oncoming change and adapt to it, no issue.
If as a SWE you see the enablement of LLMs as an existential threat, then you will find many issues, and you will fail to adapt and have all kind of issues related to it.
I saw a version of this yesterday where a commenter framed LLM-skepticism as a disappointing lack of "hacker" drive and ethos that should be applied to making "AI" toolchains work.
As you might guess, I disagreed: The "hacker" is not driven just by novelty in problems to solve, but in wanting to understand them on more than a surface layer. Messing with kludgy things until they somehow work is always a part of software engineering... but the motive and payoff comes from knowing how things work, and perceiving how they could work better.
What I "fear" from LLMs-in-coding is that they will provide an unlimited flow of "mess around until it works" drudgery tasks with none of the upside. The human role will be hammering at problems which don't really have a "root cause" (except in a stochastic sense) and for which there is never any permanent or clever fix.
Would we say someone is "not really an artist" just because they don't want to spend their days reviewing generated photos for extra-fingers, circling them, and hitting the "redo" button?
We have a hard enough time finding juniors (hell, non-juniors) that know how to program and design effectively.
The industry jerking itself off over Leetcode practice already stunted the growth of many by having them focus on rote memorization and gaming interviews.
With ubiquitous AI and all of these “very smart people” pushing LLMs as an alternative to coding, I fear we’re heading into an era where people don’t understand how anything works and have never been pushed to find out.
Then again, the ability of LLMs to write boilerplate may be the reset that we need to cut out all of the people that never really had an interest in CS that have flocked to the industry over the last decade or so looking for an easy big paycheck.
I had assumed most of them had either filtered out at some stage (an early one being college intro CS classes), ended up employed somewhere that didn't seem to mind their output, or perpetually circle on LinkedIn as "Lemons" for their next prey/employer.
My gut feeling is that messy code-gen will increase their numbers rather than decrease them. LLMs make it easier to generate an illusion of constant progress, and the humans can attribute the good parts of the output to themselves, while blaming bad-parts on the LLM.
We're well past ad nauseum now. Let's talk about anything else.
It's trivial to share coding sessions, be they horrific or great. Without those, you're hot air on the internet, independent of whatever specific opinions on LLMs you voice.
Same could be said about the anti-AI crowd.
I'm glad the author made the distinction that he's talking about LLMs, though, because far too many people these days like to shout from the rooftops about all AI being bad, totally ignoring (willfully or otherwise) important areas it's being used in like cancer research.
I am curious why the author doesn't think this saves them time (i.e. makes them more productive).
I never had terribly high output as a programmer. I certainly think LLMs have helped increased the amount of code that I can write, net total, in a year. Not to superhuman levels or even super-me levels, just me++.
But, I think the total time spent producing code has gone down to a fraction and has allowed me more time to spend thinking about what my code is meant to solve.
I wonder about two things: 1. maybe added productivity isn't going to be found in total code produced, because there is a limit on how much useful code can be produced that is based on external factors 2. do some devs look at the output of an LLM and "get the ick" because they didn't write it and LLM-code is often more verbose and "ugly", even though it may work? (this is a total supposition and not an accusation in any way. i also understand that poorly thought out, overly verbose code comes with problems over time)
To answer my own question, if you can pump out features faster but turn around and spend more time on bugs than you do previously then your productivity is likely net neutral.
There is a reason LoC as a measure of productivity has been shunned from the industry for many, many years.
To try and give an example, say that you want to make a module that transforms some data and you ask the LLM to do it. It generates a module with tons of single-layer if-else branches with a huge LoC. Maybe one human dev looks at it and says, "great this solves my problem and the LoC and verbosity isn't an issue even though it is ugly". Maybe the second looks at it and says, "there's definitely some abstraction I can find to make this easier to understand and build on top of."
Depending on the scenario and context, either of them could be correct.
OTOH, for a given developer to implement a given feature in a given system, at the end of the day, some amount of code has to be written.
If a particular developer finds that AI lets him write code comparable to what he would have written, in lieu of the code he would have written, but faster than he can do it alone, then looking at lines written might actually be meaningful, just in that context.
> even though it may work?
The first of those is about taste, and it's real, and engineers with bad taste write unstable buggy systems.
The second of those is about priority. If all you want is functional code, any old thing will do. That's what I do for one-off scripts. But if you plan to support the code at 2am when exposed to production requests on the internet, you need to understand it, which is about legibility and coherence.
I hope you do have taste, and I hope you value more than simple "it works" tests. But it might be worth looking there for why some struggle with LLM output.
For what it's worth, I use coding agents all the time, but almost never accept their output verbatim outside of boilerplate code.
Simon Wilson (known for Django) has been doing a lot of LLM evangelism on his blog these days. Antirez (Redis) wrote a blog post recently with the same vibe.
I doubt they are not good programmers. They are probably better than most of us, and I doubt they feel insecure because of the LLMs. Either I'm wrong, or there's something more to this.
edit: to clarify, I'm not saying Simon and Antirez are part of the group the article criticizes (the hostile LLM evangelists). Although the article does generalize to all LLM evangelists at least in some parts and Simon did react to this here.
And yeah, as I laid out in the article (that of course, very few people actually read, even though it was short...), I really don't mind how people make code. It's those that try so hard to convince the rest of us I find very suspect.
By now we at least agree that stochastical parrots can be useful. It would be nice if the debate now was less polarized so we could focus on what makes them work better for some and worse for others other than just expectations.
The article is against the set of LLM evangelists who are hostile towards the skeptics.
I 100% agree with the part that basically says fuck you to them.
However, explaining the hostile part with there being the feeling of insecurity (which is plausible but would need evidence) is not fully convincing and it seems dangerous to accept this conclusion and stop looking for the actual reasons this quickly.
And the fact that there are actually good programmers persuaded that LLMs help them weakens the "insecurity" argument quite a bit, at least as the only explanation.
As someone currently pretty much hostile to LLMs, I'm quite interested in what's currently at play but I'm suspicious of claims that initially feel good but are not strongly backed.
Like, if these hostile people were actually shills, we would want to know this and not have closed the eyes too early because of some explanation that felt good, right? Or any actual reason.
This article just functions as flamebait for people who use LLMs to implement whole features to argue the semantics of "vibe coding". All while everyone is ignoring the writing on the wall. That we will soon have boxes going through billions of tokens every second. At that point slopcoding WILL be productive, but only if you build up the skill to differentiate yourself from the top 10% of prompters.
Also they didn't adopt the your-career-is-ruined-if-you-don't-get-on-board tone that is sickeningly pervasive on LinkedIn. If you believe that advice and give up on being someone who understands code, you sure aren't gonna write Redis or Django.
No.
or
no, you, as an LLM evangelist, are not not willing to admit this?
Personally I think the rate of improvement will plateau: in my experience software inevitably becomes less about tech and more about the interpersonal human soup of negotiating requirements, needs, contradiction, and feedback loops, at lot of which is not signal accessible to a text-in-text-out engine.
For what it's worth, I think most of them are genuine when they say they're seeing 10X gains,they just went from, like, a 0.01X engineer (centi-swe) to to a 0.1X engineer (deci-swe).
"Why are you using Go? Rust is best! You should be using that!" "Don't use AWS CDK, use Terraform! Don't you know anything?"
https://knowyourmeme.com/videos/433740-just-coffee-black
> want to feel normal, to walk around and see that most other people made the same choice they made
In technology, the historical benefits of evangelizing your favorite technology might just be that it becomes more popular and better supported.
Even though LLMs may or may not follow the same path, if you can get your fellow man on-board, then you'll have a shared frame of reference, and someone to talk through different usage scenarios.
Demonstrably impossible if you’re actually properly trying to use them in non-esoteric domains. I challenge anyone to very honestly showcase a non-esoteric domain in which opus4.5 does not make even the most experienced developer more productive.
If you say it's demonstrably impossible that someone can't be made more productive with opus4.5, then it should probably be up to you to demonstrate impossibility.
Not enough training data couldn’t be the problem - Bazel is not an esoteric domain. Unless you’re trying to do something esoteric.
lol. is this supposed to be like some sort of "gotcha"! yes? like maybe i am a really shitty programmer and always just wanted to hack things together. what it has allowed me to do is prevent burnout to some extent, outsource the "boring" parts and getting back to building things i like.
also getting tired of these extreme takes but whatever, it's #1 so mission accomplished. llms are neither this or that. just another tool in the toolbox, one that has been frustrating in some contexts and a godsend in others and part of that process is figuring out where it excels and doesn't.
I use LLMs for things I am not good at. But I also know I am not good at them.
No one is good at everything. 100% fine.
i mean if you have imposter syndrome then this feeling will always be prevalent. how do you know what you are good at or not? i might be competent enough to have progressed this far in my career as in "results", but comparison to people i consider "good" devs always puts in that doubt.
i guess it strikes a chord when someone in the same breath of claiming to be open minded makes a backhand comment where people who like llms might just must be a shitty programmer or whatever. i get the point, but that line doesn't quite land the way you think it does.
Note I also think AI is bad for philosophical/ethical reasons.
If I can build better/faster with reasonably equal quality, I'll trade off the joy of programming for the joy of more building, of more high level problem solving and thinking, etc.
I've also seen the opposite: those that derive more joy from the programming and the cool engineering than from the product. And you see the opposite behavior from them, of course--such as selecting a solution that's cool and novel to build, rather than the simple, boring, but better alternative.
I often find this type of engineer rather frustrating to work with, and coincidentally, they seem to be the most anti-AI type I've encountered.
Its always been the case that engineers come in many flavors, some more and some less business-inclined. The difference with AI imo is that it will (or already is) putting its trillion-dollar finger on the scale, such that there is less patience and space for people like me, and more for people like you.
The author's central complaint is that LLM evangelists dismiss skeptics with psychological speculation ("you're afraid of being irrelevant"). Their response? Psychological speculation ("you're projecting insecurity about your coding skills").
This is tu quoque dressed up as insight. Fighting unfounded psychoanalysis with unfounded psychoanalysis doesn't refute anything. It just levels the playing field of bad arguments.
The author gestures at this with "I am still willing to admit I am wrong" but the bulk of the piece is vibes-based counter-psychoanalysis, not engagement with evidence.
It's a well-written "no u" that mistakes self-awareness ("I know this isn't charitable") for self-correction.
LLMs have also become kind of a political issue, except only the "anti" side even really cares about it. Given that using and prompting them is very much a garbage in/garbage out scenario, people let their social and political biases cloud their usage, and instead of helping it succeed, they try to collect "gotcha" moments, which doesn't reflect the workflow of someone using an LLM productively.
The people who were the best at something don't necessarily be the best at a new paradigm. Unlearning some principles and learning new ones might be painful exercise for some masters.
Military history has shown that the masters of the new wave are not necessarily the masters of the previous wave we see the rise and downfall of several civilizations from Roman to Greek for being too sure of their old methods and old military equipments and strategy.
Just because LLMs don't work for you outside of vibe-coding, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone.
> LLM evangelists - are you willing to admit that you just might not be that good at programming computers?
Productive usage of LLMs in large scale projects become viable with excellent engineering (tests, patterns, documentation, clean code) so perhaps that question should also be asked to yourself.
The article starts from the premise that LLMs are only good for vibe-coding.
I work a lot with doctors (writing software for them), I am very envious of their system of specialisation, eg this dude did is such and such a specialist - he knows about it, listen to him. IT seems to be anyone who talks the loudest has a podium, separating the wheat from the chaff is difficult. One day we will have a system of qualifications I hope, but it seems a long way off.
It's a lot like why I've been bullish on Tesla's approach to FSD even as someone who owned an AP1 vehicle that objectively was NOT "self-driving" in any sense of the word: it's less about where the technology is right now, or even the speed the technology is currently improving at, and more about how the technology is now present to enable acceleration in the rate of improvement of performance, paired with the reality of us observing exactly that. Like FSD V12 to V14, the last several years in AI can only be characterized as an unprecedented rate of improvement, very much like scientific advancement throughout human society. It took us millions of years to evolve into humans. Hundreds of thousands to develop language. Tens of thousands to develop writing. Thousands to develop the printing press. Hundreds to develop typewriters. Decades to develop computers. Years to go from the 8086 to the modern workstations of today. The time horizon of tasks AI agents can now reliably perform is now doubling every 4 months, per METR.
Do frontier models know more than human experts in all domains right now? Absolutely not. But they already know far more than any individual human expert outside that human's domain(s) of expertise.
I've been passionate about technology for nearly two decades, working in the technology industry for close to a decade. I'm a security guy, not a dev. I have over half a dozen CVEs and countless private vuln disclosures. I can and do write code myself - I've been writing scripts for various network tasks for a decade before ChatGPT ever came into existence. That said, it absolutely is a better dev than me. But specialized harnesses paired with frontier models are also better security engineers than I am, dollar for dollar versus my cost. They're better pentesters than me, for the relative costs. These statements were not true at all without accounting for cost two years ago. Two years from now, I am fully expecting them to just be outright better at security engineering, pentesting, SCA than I am, without accounting for cost, yet I also expect they will cost less then than they do now.
A year ago, OpenAI's o1 was still almost brand new, test-time compute was this revolutionary new idea. Everyone thought you needed tens of billions to train a model as good as o1, it was still a week before Deepseek released R1.
Now, o1's price/performance seems like a distant bad dream. I had always joked that one quarter in tech saw as much change as like 1 year in "the real world". For AI, it feels more like we're seeing more change every month than we do every year in "the real world", and I'd bet on that accelerating, too.
I don't think experienced devs still preferring to architect and write code themselves are coping at all. I still have to fix bugs in AI-generated code myself. But I do think it's short sighted to not look at the trajectory and see the writing on the wall over the next 5 years.
Stanford's $18/hr pentester that outperforms 9/10 humans should have every pentester figuring out what they're going to be doing when it doubles in performance and halves in cost again over the next year, just like human Uber drivers should be reading Motortrend's (historically a vocal critic of Tesla and FSD) 2026 Best Driver Assistance System and figuring out what they're going to do next. Experienced devs should be looking at how quickly we came from text-davinci-003 to Opus 4.5 and considering what their economic utility will look like in 2030.
"you'll be left behind if you don't learn crypto" with crypto
or
"you'll be left behind if you don't learn how to drive" with cars
One of those statements is made in good faith, and the other is made out of insecurity. But we'll probably only really be able to tell looking backwards.
Can’t speak for others but that’s not what I’d understand (or do) as vibecoding. If you’re babysitting it every inch of the way then yeah sure I can see how it might not be productive relative to doing it yourself.
If you’re constantly fighting the LLM because you have a very specific notion of what each line should look like it won’t be a good time.
Better to spec out some assumptions, some desired outcomes, tech to be used, maybe the core data structure, ask the llm what else it needs to connect the dots, add that and then let it go
Yeah I find they are useful for large sweeping changes, introducing new features and stuff, mostly because they write a lot of the boilerplate, granted with some errors. But for small fiddly changes they suck, you will have a much easier time doing these changes your self.
If it’s less than that, then it’s more like adding syntax highlighting or moving from Java to Ruby on Rails. Both of those were nice, but people weren’t breathlessly shouting about being left behind.
Of course we need a few people to get wildly overexcited about new possibilities, so they will go make all the early mistakes which show the rest of us what the new thing can and cannot actually do; likewise, we need most of us to feel skeptical and stick to what already works, so we don't all run off a cliff together by mistake.
I think that coding assistants tend to quite good as long as what you ask is close to the training data.
Anything novel and the quality if falling off rapidly.
So, if you are like Antirez and ask for a Linenoize improvement that has already be seen many times by the LLM at training time, the result will seem magical, but that is largely an illusion, IMO.
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