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Lines of Code Are Back (and It's Worse Than Before)

https://www.thepragmaticcto.com/p/lines-of-code-are-back-and-its-worse
46•birdculture•1h ago

Comments

kittikitti•38m ago
When I was just beginning, all of the productivity measures would be 0 and I felt like a failure. The most attainable was lines of code. Currently, it's not a great measure of productivity as I'm achieving more advanced tasks. I've heard so many opinions about how LOC isn't a great measure and then the same people get to trample on all of the work I've done out of spite because I've written more code than them. I think LOC is great because productivity measures are for beginners and people who don't understand code. The audience doesn't know the difference between writing a hundred or thousands of lines of code, both are trophies for them.

These metrics for advanced roles are not applicable, no matter what you come up with. But even lines of code are good enough to see progress from a blank slate. Every developer or advanced AI agent must be judged on a case by case basis.

kemotep•35m ago
But if removing 1kLOC and replacing them with 25 for a much better function, there is a -975 LOC report. Does this count as negative productivity? Having brackets start and stop on their own lines could double LOC counts but would that actually improve the code base? Be a sign of doubling productivity?

The OpenBSD project prides itself on producing very secure, bug free software, and they largely trend towards as low of lines of codes as they can possibly get away with while maintaining readability (so no codegolf tricks for the most part). I would rather we write secure bug free software than speed up the ability to output 10kLOC. The typing out code isn’t the difficult part in that scenario.

skydhash•1m ago
No one judges a painting by the amount of paint, or a wooden chair by the number of nails in it. The amount of LoC doesn’t matter. What matters is that the code is bug-free, readable, and maintainable.

But reducing the amount of LoC helps, just like using the correct word helps in writing text. That’s the craft part of software engineering, having the taste to write clear and good code.

And just like writing and any other craft, the best way to acquire such taste is to study others works.

countWSS•33m ago
The code written by AI in most cases is throwaway code to be improved/refined later. Its likely to be large, verbose and bloated. The design of some agents have "simplify/refactor" as final step to remedy this, but typically your average vibe coder will be satisfied that the code just compiles/passes the minimal tests. Lines of code are easy to grow. If you refine the AI code with iterative back-and-forth questions, the AI can be forced to write much more compact or elegant version in principle, but you can't apply this to most large systems without breaking something, as AI doesn't have context of what is actually changing: so e.g. an isolated function can be improved easily, but AI can't handle when complexity of abstraction stacks and interfacing multiple systems, typically because it confuses states where global context is altered.
crazygringo•33m ago
I think the author is missing a key distinction.

Before, lines of code was (mis)used to try to measure individual developer productivity. And there was the collective realization that this fails, because good refactoring can reduce LoC, a better design may use less lines, etc.

But LoC never went away, for example, for estimating the overall level of complexity of a project. There's generally a valid distinction between an app that has 1K, 10K, 100K, or 1M lines of code.

Now, the author is describing LoC as a metric for determining the proportion of AI-generated code in a codebase. And just like estimating overall project complexity, there doesn't seem to be anything inherently problematic about this. It seems good to understand whether 5% or 50% of your code is written using AI, because that has gigantic implications for how the project is managed, particularly from a quality perspective.

Yes, as the author explains, if the AI code is more repetitive and needs refactoring, then the AI proportion will seem overly high in terms of how much functionality the AI proportion contributes. But at the same time, it's entirely accurate in terms of how this is possibly a larger surface for bugs, exploits, etc.

And when the author talks about big tech companies bragging about the high percentage of LoC being generated with AI... who cares? It's obviously just for press. I would assume (hope) that code review practices haven't changed inside of Microsoft or Google. The point is, I don't see these numbers as being "targets" in the way that LoC once were for individual developer productivity... there's more just a description of how useful these tools are becoming, and a vanity metric for companies signaling to investors that they're using new tools efficiently.

o_nate•11m ago
I don't think the author is missing this distinction. It seems that you agree with him in his main point which is that companies bragging about LOCs generated by AI should be ignored by right-thinking people. It's just you buried that substantive agreement at the end of your "rebuttal".
jihadjihad•2m ago
> It seems good to understand whether 5% or 50% of your code is written using AI, because that has gigantic implications for how the project is managed, particularly from a quality perspective.

I'd say you're operating on a higher plane of thought than the majority in this industry right now. Because the majority view roughly appears to be "Need bigger number!", with very little thought, let alone deep thought, employed towards the whys or wherefores thereof.

dimgl•31m ago
I was enjoying the article, and then the author hit me with one of these:

> AI didn't just repeat the mistake. It broke the mistake open.

Come on bruh

MyHonestOpinon•20m ago
It reminds me. When I had my consulting company 20 years ago, I defined these "metrics" to decide if a project was successful.

- Is the client happy? - Are the team members growing(as in learning)? - Were we able to make a profit?

Everything else was less relevant. For example: Why do I care that the project took bit longer, if at the end the client was happy with the result, and we can continue the relationship with new projects. It frees you from the cruelty of dates that are often set arbitrary.

So perhaps we should evaluate AI coding tools the same. If we can deliver successful projects in a sustainable way, then we are good.

ziml77•18m ago
I've noticed that it's super easy to end up with tons of extra lines of code when using AI. It will write code that's already available (whether that's in external libraries, internal libraries, or code already the same project). I don't mind trying to keep dependencies down, but I also don't want every project to have its own poorly tested CSV parser.

It also also often fails to clean up after itself. When you remove a feature (one that you may not have even explicitly asked for) it will sometimes just leave behind the unused code. This is really annoying when reviewing and you realize one of the files you read through is referenced nowhere.

You have to keep a close eye out to prevent bloat from these issues.

viktorcode•14m ago
LoC is a good code quality metric, only it has to be inverted. Not "it wrote C compiler in 100 000 lines of code", but "in just 2000 lines of code". Now that is impressive and deserves praise.
CuriouslyC•10m ago
Lines of code changed are a very bad measure for humans because they can be gamed. It's an ok measure for "work done" with AI if you're don't prompt the model to game it. It's useful because it's quick to calculate and concrete, but if you use it as more than a proxy it'll bite you.