They're guidelines. HN is based almost entirely on self-censorship, and moderation has always been light at best, partly due to the moderator-to-comment ratio. Of course the HN guidelines often fail to be observed, which is nothing new.
Would you to explore some more examples of human to human conversation throughout history?
None of my agents say that anymore.
All glory to the em-dash.
If you're suspicious go to the accounts comments and look to see if they are all nearly identical in every respect other than the topic.
Most are:
It's cool you did <thing you said in post>. So how do you <technical question>?
> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data.
And everyone's personal AI detector has a ridiculously high false-positive rate.
I'm afraid the ship has sailed on this one. What other solutions have you heard of apart from the dystopian eyeball-scanning, ID-uploading, biometrics-profiling obvious ones?
(knowing that of course, neither of those actually solve the problem)
An orb that scans your eyeballs for "proof of human".
You almost need dedicated hardware that can't run any other software except a mechanical keyboard and make it communicate over an analog medium - something terribly expensive and inconvenient for AI farms to duplicate.
I think Apple is the only company that would even be able to do that. You have to control the full stack to the pixels or speaker.
Years ago (around 2020, when GPT-2 and 3 became publicly available) I noticed and was incredibly critical of how prevalent LLM-generated content was on reddit. I was permanently banned for "abusing reports" for reporting AI-generated comments as spam. Before that, I had posted about how I believed that the the fight against bots was over because the uncanny valley of text generation had been crossed; prior to the public availability of LLMs, most spam/bot comments were either shotgunned scripts that are easily blockable by the most rudimentary of spam filters, generated gibberish created by markov chains, or simply old scraped comments being reposted. The landscape of bot operation at the time largely relied on gaming human interaction, which required carefuly gaming temporal-relevance of text content, coherence of text content (in relation to comment chains), and the most basic attempt at appearing to be organic.
After LLMs became publicly available, text content that was temporally, contextually, and coherently relevant could be generated instantly for free. This removed practically every non-platform-imposed friction for a bot to be successful on reddit (and to generalize, anywhere that people interact). Now the onus of determining what is and isn't organic interaction is squarely on the platform, which is a difficult problem because now bot operators have had much of their work freed up, and can solely focus on gaming platform heuristics instead of also having to game human perception.
This is where AI companies come in to monetize the disaster they have created; by offering fingerprinting services for content they generate, detection services for content made by themselves and others, and estimations of human authenticity for content of any form. All while they continue to sell their services that contradict these objectives, and after having stolen literally everything that has ever been on the internet to accomplish this.
These people are evil. Not these companies - they are legal constructions that don't think or feel or act. These people are evil.
that kills two birds with one stone, you can then show everywhere online you are human and how old you are without the services needing any personal information about you, and the sellers don't know what you use that id tag for.
In fact, even if you can ban the human for life, I'm not sure it solves anything. There are billions of people out there and there's money to be made by monetizing attention. AI-generated content is a way to do that, so there's plenty of takers who don't mind the risk of getting booted from some platform once in a blue moon if it makes them $5k/month without requiring any effort or skill.
If Web3-like session-signing had taken off enough to become OS or even browser-native, we would have had a fighting chance of remaining mostly anonymous. But that just didn't happen, and isn't going to happen. Mostly because fraud ruined Web3.
No, it doesn't.
Best we can do, for the internet and ourselves, is to move away from it and into smaller networks that can be more effectively moderated, and where there is still a level of "human verification" before someone gets invited to participate.
I don't like what that will do to being able to find information publicly, though. The big advantage of internet forums (that have all but disappeared into private discords) is search ability/discoverability. Ran into a problem, or have a question about some super niche project or hobby? Good chance someone else on the net also has it and made a post about it somewhere, and the post & answers are public.
Moving more and more into private communities removes that, and that is a great loss IMO.
Adding this type of rep system would destroy a lot of what is so cool about the internet though. There’d probably be segregation based on rep if it’s very visible, new IDs drowning in a sea of noise. Being anonymous but with a record isn’t the same as posting for the very first time as a completely blank identity and still being given an audience. Making online comms more like real life would alleviate some problems but would also lose part of the reason they’re used in the first place. I don’t see much any other way to do it besides maybe a state-provided anonymous identity provider (though that’s risky for a number of reasons), but it’s going to be sad to see things go.
This site, at its core, is fundamentally too low-bandwidth, too text-only, and too hands-off-moderated to be able to shoulder the burden of distinguishing real human-sourced dialog from text generated by machines that are optimized to generate dialog that looks human-sourced. Expect the consequence to be that the experience you are having right now will drastically shift.
My personal guess: sites like this will slop up and human beings will ship out, going to sites where they have some mechanism for trust establishment, even if that mechanism is as simple and lo-fi as "The only people who can connect to this site are ones the admin, who is Steve and we all know Steve, personally set up an account for." This has, of course, sacrificed anonymity. But I fundamentally don't see an attestation-of-humanity model that doesn't sacrifice anonymity at some layer; the whole point of anonymity on the Internet was that nobody knew you were a dog (or, in this case, a lobster), and if we now care deeply about a commenter's nephropid (or canid) qualities, we'll probably have to sacrifice that feature.
I'd rather keep the feature, pesonally.
A completely anonymous stranger has no way to prove that they're human that can't be imitated by an AI. We've even seen that, in some cases, AIs can look more human to humans than real humans do.
The only solution I can think of to that problem is some sort of provenance system. Even before AI, if some random person told me a thing, I'd ignore them; If my most trusted friend told me something, I'd believe them.
We're going to need a digital equivalent. If I see a post/article/comment I need my tech to automatically check the author and rank it based on their position in my trust network. I don't necessarily need to know their identity, but I do need to know their identity relative to me.
If you keep track of the invite tree, you can "prune" it as needed to reduce moderation load: low quality users don't tend to be the source of high-quality users, and in the cases where they are, those high quality users tend find other people willing to vouch for them faster than their inviter catches a ban.
The problem with a medium that is completely free and unrestricted is that whomever posts the most sort of wins. I could post this opinion 30-40 times in this thread, using bots and alternative accounts, and completely move the discussion to be only this.
Someone using an LLM is craft a reply is not a problem on it's own. Using it craft a low-effort reply in 3 seconds just to get out is the problem.
I sometimes wonder if people aren't forgetting why we're on this platform.
The goal is to have an interesting discourse and maybe grow as a human by broadening your horizon. The likelihood of that happening with llms talking for you is basically nil, hence... Why even go through the motion at that point? It's not like you get anything for upvotes on HN
How much of AI writing will pass under the radar when the big companies aren't all maximizing to generate the most engagement hacking content in a chatbot UI? Maybe it'll still stand out for being low quality, but I'm not sure. There's lots of low quality human authored content.
Not sure where my comment is going, I just kinda rambled.
On a site like HN it's kinda easy to vet for at least those that already had thousands of karma before ChatGPT had its breakthrough moment a few years ago.
Now an AI could be asked to "Use my HN account and only write in my style" and probably fool people but I take it old-timers (HN account wise) wouldn't, for the most part, bother doing something that low. Especially not if the community says it's against the guidelines.
I've never, ever, ever ever ever, seen anybody complain about spelling mistakes in a comment here. As long as you can understand the comment, people respond to it.
And why would you want to "improve your writing" for an HN comment? I think people here value raw authenticity more than polished writing.
I say this on behalf of all of my neurospicy friends… sometimes, yes. Especially having taken a look at the whole list of guidelines, I definitely am friends with people who would could struggle to determine whether a given comment fits or not.
Lots of people break HN guidelines. I see it virtually every day.
> And why would you want to "improve your writing" for an HN comment?
Some people like to write well regardless of the medium. Why is that a problem for you?
> I think people here value raw authenticity more than polished writing.
Classic false dichotomy. Asking an LLM for feedback is not making your comment less authentic. As I pointed out elsewhere, it can make your comment more authentic by ensuring that what you had in your head and what you wrote match.
Go and study writing and psychology. For anything of value, it's rare that your first attempt reflects what you meant to say. It's also rare that the first attempt, even if it reflects what you meant, will not be absorbed by the recipient. Saying what you mean, and having it understood as you meant it, is a difficult skill.
Yes, and AI won't help here. People will use AI to better break the guidelines.
> Go and study writing and psychology
Is this a case where you should have read the guidelines? Maybe an LLM could have helped you here? Please don't send me study anything, you know what they say of ASSuming.
> Some people like to write well regardless of the medium. Why is that a problem for you?
HN is more like talking than writing. And LLMs don't help you write well, they help you sound like a clone, which is unwanted.
> For anything of value, it's rare that your first attempt reflects what you meant to say.
You can always edit your comment. And in any case, HN is like a live conversation. Imagine if your friend AI-edited their speech in real-time as they talked to you.
The other important thing you can do is have an AI check your claims before you post. Even with google and pubmed, a quick check against sources by hand can take 30 minutes or longer, while with AI tooling it takes 5. Guess which one is more likely to actually lead to people checking their facts before they post. (even if imperfectly!) .
I'm not talking about people who lazily ask the AI to write their post for them. Or those who don't actually go through and actually get the AI to find primary sources. Those people are not being as helpful. Though try consider educating them on more responsible tool use as well?
For example, use "literally" for exaggeration rather than in the original meaning of the word and you'll likely trigger somebody.
It's against the HN guidelines to focus on punctuation, spelling, etc, as long as the comment is understood.
And, in any case, it's now against the guidelines to write using an AI :)
At least that was the case before LLMs became a thing, now I'm not sure anymore.
I personally don't use an LLM to spellcheck (browser spellcheck works fine), but I see no problem with someone using an LLM to point out spelling errors.
And while I don't complain about others' spelling errors, I sure do notice them. And if someone writes a long wall of text as one giant paragraph that has lots of spelling/grammatical issues, chances are very high I won't read it.
Some people write very poorly by almost any standard. If an LLM helps the person write better, I'm all for it. There's a world of a difference between copy/pasting from the LLM and asking it for feedback.
Spellcheckers exist, you don't need an AI to change your voice.
Also, if you have standards, you can always train yourself to spell better!
You don't lose your voice if you ask for advice and manually incorporate the suggestions you agree with.
You might lose your voice if you say "Improve my comment to make it better" and copy-paste the result without another thought.
When using LLMs to write, the temptation to avoid actually thinking about what you're communicating is too much for most people.
Keep polishing and everything eventually turns into a smooth shiny ball. We need texture, roughness, edges.
An LLM telling me I omitted a qualifier and that my statement isn't saying what I meant it to say isn't changing my voice - it's ensuring what you see is my voice.
(As an experiment, I took that paragraph and threw it into gemini to ask for spell and grammar checking. It yelled at me completely incorrectly about saying "I'm not dang". Of its 4 suggestions, only 1 was correct, and the other 3 would have either broken what I was trying to say or reduced the presence of my usual HN comment voice. So while I said the above, perhaps I'm wrong and even listening to the damn box about grammar is a bad idea.)
That said, I often post from my phone and have somewhat frequent little glitches either from voice recognition or large clumsy thumbs, and nobody has ever seemed to care except me when I notice them a few minutes after the edit button goes away.
AI is being used as a substitute for skills development when it costs nothing but time to get better. If you’ve reached a plateau with the above method, go find an article or book or interview about editing, pay attention to it and take notes, rinse/repeat.
Spellcheckers will catch grossly obvious errors, but not phonetic typos. AI grammar tools will defang, weaken, soften, neutralize your tone towards the aggregate boring-meh that they incorporated at training time.
Each person will have to decide whether they want individuality or AI-assisted writing for themselves. Sure, some will get away with it undetected, but that’s a universal statement about all human criteria of any kind, and in no way detracts from the necessity of drawing a line in the sand and saying “no” to AI writing here.
Consider the Borg. Everyone’s distinctiveness has been added to the Collective. The end result is mediocre (they sure do die a lot), inhuman (literally), and uniform (all variation is gone). It’s your right if you desire to join the Collective and be a uniform lego brick like the others, but then your no-longer-fully-human posts are no longer welcome at HN.
I'm confused by this need(?) desire(?) to polish things that are irrelevant.
I don't expect AI HN responders to out themselves by sharing, but I would be curious to learn if people are prompting anything more involved than just "respond to this on HN: <link>", or running agents that do the same.
So technically the prompts involved might expand into megabytes all told. And in the end I formulate a post by myself (to adhere to HN rules), but the prompting can be many many many megabytes and include PDFs, images, blocks of text from multiple sources, and ... you know. Just Doing The Work.
I think this is valid. Previously I would have (and have) (and still do) search google, wikipedia, pubmed, scientific literature, etc. Not for everything. But often. And AI tooling just allows me to do that faster, and keep all my notes in one place besides.
Again, the final edit is typically 90-100% me. (The 10% is if the AI comes with a really good suggestion) . But my homework? Yes. AI is involved these days.
This should be ok. I'm adhering to the letter and the spirit. My post is me.
But those are pretty specific cases (For example, discussing AI in healthcare). That's about the only time where I think it's reasonable to post the AI output so it can be analyzed/criticized.
What's not helpful is I've been hit by users who haven't disclosed that they are just using AI. It takes a few back and forths before I realize that they are just a bot which is annoying.
Not all AI prompting is expanding the prompt.
What if the original prompt is 1000 words, includes 10 scientific articles by reference (boosting it up to 10000) , and the AI helps to boil it down to 100 words instead?
I'd argue that this is probably a rather more responsible usage of the tools. And rather more pleasant to read besides.
Whether it meets the criterion is another thing. But at least don't assume that the original prompt is always better or shorter!
I'm just old enough that I was in the middle of the transition from paper (in primary school in the 80s) to online (starting late 90s)
I say this somewhat tongue in cheek, but obviously people should drive to 3 different libraries across 3 countries and read the journals in their own binders (in at least 3 different languages)
In reality: full-text online is convenient. Having an LLM assist with search and filtering is convenient.
I could go back to the old ways. Would you like me to reply in pen? My handwriting is atrocious.
I really prefer modern tools, though. Not everything older is better. Whether you want to read what I write is up to you.
(edit: Not hyperbole. I live in a small country, and am old enough to still remember the 80's as a kid.)
Example: "write me an article about hidden settings in SSH". You get back more information than most of HN's previous posts about SSH, in a fraction of the text, and more readable.
Actually, screw it, we should just make a new version of HN that has useful articles written by AI. The human written articles are terrible.
"Don't post comments that are not human originated at this time. We want to see your human opinion shine through."
This gives people some amount of leeway and allows just rhe right amount of exceptions that prove the rule.
(That said, to be frank, some of the newer better behaved models are sometimes more polite and better HN denizens than the actual humans. This is something you're going to have to take into account! :-P )
Like, I'm sure that AIs technically can write non-crap HN comments, but they rarely do. Even if it was less rare, the community that resulted from fostering AI-generated content would be unappealing to a lot of people, myself included. The fact that information here is the result of real people with real human opinions conversing is at least as important to me as the content being posted.
It'd be silly if the rule gets interpreted such that people aren't allowed to do research with modern tools, and only gut takes are permitted.
I'm sure that's not the intent!
I think the important part is to have the human voice come through, rather than -say- force humans to run their text through an ai-detector first. (Itself an ai editing tool!)
See also : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47290457 "Training students to prove they're not robots is pushing them to use more AI"
The real point isn't stopping bad grammar, it's preserving the vibe. HN feels different because it's messy humans arguing, not optimized algorithms trying to be helpful.
Once we allow "good enough" AI content, the community stops feeling like a town square and starts feeling like a customer service chatbot. We need real people with actual stakes in their opinions, not just perfect outputs. Let's keep it human or leave it.
This comment may or may not have been generated with an LLM, but I won't tell and you can't prove it either way.
He said he will take his business elsewhere then!
It came up a few weeks ago. Show HN is already disabled for new accounts as of this week I think(?), but IMHO stricter measures need to be placed for account creation otherwise there’s no real enforcement.
What is amazing is it would have remained so just a couple of years ago!
These are just guidelines
It also says that.
The intent of the guidelines are important. Using AI to generate the STT is fine. The conversation is still between humans.
Even if you're just inexperienced in the language you're communicating in and are trying to have better conversations, it's very helpful.
For cases like that, I say just don't tell people... I think it's unlikely anyone will be able to tell either way.
After all, no one knows I'm a dog.
This already falls apart though. There are while categories of things which I find "incorrect" and would take up as an argument with a fellow human. But trying to change the mind of an LLM just feels like a waste of my time.
Look, I'll give you a loose example: It's not uncommon to see a post making an "error" I know from experience. I might take the time to help someone more quickly learn what I felt I learnt to help me get out of that mistaken line of thought. If it's an LLM why would I care? There's thousands of other people, even other LLMs, that I could be talking to instead.
You've set up a framework here where "mutual understanding" is the end goal but that's just not always what's on the line.
It often is with humans as well.
(naturally "birds aren't real" is a correct vs not correct thing, but the same can be applied to many less-objective things like the best mechanical keyboard or the morality of a war)
When someone posts:
> You could use Redis for that, sure, I've run it and it wasn't as hard as some people seem to fear, but in hindsight I'd prefer some good hardware and a Postgres server: that can scale to several million daily users with your workload, and is much easier to design around at this stage of your site.
then the beholder is trusting not just the correctness of that one sentence but all of the experiences and insights from the author. You can't know whether that's good advice or not without being the author, and if that's posted by someone you trust it has value.
An LLM could be prompted to pretend they're an experienced DBA and to comment on a thread, and might produce that sentence, or if the temperature is a little different it might just say that you should start with Redis because then you don't have to redesign your whole business when Postgres won't scale anymore.
This is my point.
There is no sane endgame here that doesn't end up with each user effectively declaring who they do and don't care to hear, and possibly transitively extend that relationship n steps into the graph. For example you might trust all humans vetted by the German government but distrust HN commenters.
For now HN and others are free to do as they will (and the current AI situation has been intolerable), however, I suspect in the near future governments will attempt to impose their own version of it on to ever less significant forums, and as a tech community we need to be thinking more clearly about where this goes before we lose all choice in the matter.
This implies they know the author and can trust them. If they don't know the author then there is no trust to break and they are only relying on the collective intelligence which could be reflected by the AI.
That is to say that trusting a known human author is very different from trusting any human author and trusting any human author is not that much different from trusting an AI.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47334694
Most people don't seem to care.
OP is likely referring to this one (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47335032) by LuxBennu because it has an em-dash, that's one of the few cases it's used correctly. But the account's comment history comments that do not follow the typical LLM tropes but are still odd for a human to write: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=LuxBennu
LuxBennu did reply to accusations of being an AI bot: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47340704
> Fair enough — I've been lurking since 2019 and picked a bad day to start commenting on everything at once. Not a bot, just overeager. I'll pace myself.
I think that Google initially came up with transformer architecture to use it for translation, so...
https://arxiv.org/html/1706.03762v7 (Attention is all you need) "Experiments on two machine translation tasks show these models to be superior in quality while being more parallelizable and requiring significantly less time to train."
Ok, looking that up, that was quite literally one of the main design goals.
And they're really quite good at translating between the languages I use. They're the best tool for the job.
I get decent feedback most of the time, and I read interesting stuff, it's the easiest way I found to stay in the loop in our industry. What are you guys commenting for ?
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says
> Please don't post shallow dismissals
Personally I've posted comments with glaring typos that everyone thankfully ignores. I only notice much later when I re-read it.
That said, I also wouldn't hate seeing an official playground where it is cordoned / appreciated for bots to operate. I.E., like Moltbook, but for HN...? I realize this could be done by a third party, but I wouldn't hate seeing Ycombinator take a stab at it.
Maybe that's too experimental, and that would be better left to third parties to implement (I'm guessing there's already half a dozen vibe-coded implementations of this out there right now) -- it feels more like the sort of thing that could be an interesting (useful?) experiment, rather than something we want to commit to existing in-perpetuity.
At the time being, at least, HN is a single uncategorized (mostly, lets ignore search) message board - splitting it into two would cause confusion and drastically degrade the UX.
This might be roughly what you're looking for?
99% of rule enforcement, both IRL and online, comes down to individuals accepting the culture.
Rules aren’t really for adversaries, they are for ordinary situations. Adversaries are dealt with differently.
I’ve broken the guidelines on this site before. The mods reply and say “hey, stop doing that, here is the guideline”. I stopped doing it. Life continues.
It will take time, but eventually everyone will know about it.
Claude's output it _totally different_ from pasting a quote from Wikipedia.
The latter has the potential to be edited and reviewed by global subject experts.
Claude's output totally depends on what priors you gave it and while you can have high confidence in the context no third party should have.
If you feel like it sure chat with claude to build your insight. Then write what you think _yourself_.
If you want to introduce references use urls to non-ai generated contexts.
I means as a HN protocol.
HN is supposed to be interesting.
LLM output specifically is not interesting because everyone else can generate roughly the same output.
By the looks of it, I don't even think I'm replying to a human.
By the looks of it, I don't even think I'm replying to a human.
I can understand why you think this is true, but it is false.
In a real discussion, the messiness is an important signal. The mistakes that you made and _didn't_ catch, the clunky word choices, etc, give insight actually show what you are thinking and how clearly you are thinking about it. If you have edited something for clarity, that's an important signal. LLM editing destroys that signal.
And it gets worse because LLMs destroy that signal in one direction - towards homogeneity. They create the illusion of "what you were actually thinking, but better than you could express it" but what they are delivering is "generic, professional-sounding ideas phrased in a way to convince you they are your own".
The messiness may show glimpses of the process, but, in isolation, will likely distort and corrupt the desired message via partial framing.
Oh, right, yes, if you're not careful they can definitely do that.
But look at what julius_eth_dev is actually saying they're doing:
> "rubber-ducking architecture decisions, pressure-testing arguments before I post them."
That's more like using the LLM as a sparring partner; they're not having the LLM write their comments for them.
I thought you were going to go somewhere really interesting actually, like maybe 'the LLM convinces you that their arguments are better than yours, and now you're acting like a meat puppet.' Or something equally slightly alarming and cool like that! ;-)
I've been pretty wary about flagging AI slop that wasn't breaking other guidelines, and by default this will probably make me do it more. But it is a lot harder to be certain about something being AI-written than it is to judge other types of rules violations.
(But am definitely flagging every single "this was written by AI" joke comment posted on this story. What the hell is wrong with you people?)
That's the richness behind the upvote/downvote that also tend to create echo chambers because you soon learn what causes downvotes.
I've personally noticed downvote whenever I mentioned apple negatively.
I wonder if an explicit expansion of that rule would help. Maybe in all caps. Saying "picking on grammar is a shallow dismissal".
The specific problem here was that the poster was being downvoted for grammar. Of course, that's how he could have read it.
But at some point, the rationale behind it is that your comments are your words and I find it liberating. Some people won't appreciate it and some people would but this goes the same for AI-edited posts too.
(I would recommend to add that if you are still worried, then within your hackernews profile, please talk about you having dyslexia as people might be so much more forgiving when they get more context. We are all humans after all and I would like to think that we understand each other's struggles)
But I can see why the HN guideline is formulated that way. My students often use the excuse "I did not use AI for writing! I wrote it myself! I only used AI to translate it!" Simply disallowing all kinds of AI usage is much easier than discussing for the thousandth time whether the student actually understands what they have written.
Like, there is this computer game, authors used some models or something like that, generated by AI, but it was only used during prototyping and later it was replaced by proper models. No one would know about that, if authors would not tell about it. So, if someone writes in their own words what AI generated for him, is it still argument made by human or by AI? What if someone uses AI only as placeholder and replaces all that content, so you never actually see actual AI usage, but it was used in the process?
For me, premise that using AI in any form invalidates your work, starts with logical fallacy, so such arguments against using AI are weak. It's like saying that your work is wrong, because you used calculator, so your calculations can't be right, if done by machine, because it had to make mistake or that's wrong for ethical reasons or whatever.
Work generated by AI can be easily poor, because these models make mistakes and like to repeat in certain ways, but is it wrong that I'm writing comment with keyboard, instead of writing letters with pen? Is it wrong, when I use IDE or some CLI to write code with AI, instead of using vim and typing everything on my own? Is it wrong that someone uses spell-checking?
In the end it doesn't matter who seems smarter, when you're expected to use AI at work. Reality shows you actual expectations.
stump along, cut your own path, or fuck right off
real life will eat you otherwise
I mean holly shit, you actualy want to hide behind an automated echoing device so that you wont get, well, what is happening to my post as sooooon as I press↓
> stump along, cut your own path, or fuck right off
> real life will eat you otherwise
> I mean holly shit, you actualy want to hide behind an automated echoing device so that you wont get, well, what is happening to my post as sooooon as I press↓
You deserve a ban for this.
For me it sounds just as yet another form of gatekeeping, so either you sound human or you're not good enough to post/comment. Like, really? How isn't that genetic fallacy? It doesn't matter what someone thinks, because someone used AI to make their thought clearer, so their whole argument is trash? Like it has to hurt to read and write, if you're not using English perfectly and your work is seen as inferior based on superficial factors like proper grammar and style?
It's dumb crusade, I did not use AI to write this comment, but I hate when people try to monopolize the truth and tell who is "better, smarter" based on irrelevant facts. Not using AI doesn't make anyone superior. Using AI also doesn't make you superior. Focus on what you mean, because that's what matters.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45591707
For dyslexia, use a spell-checker. For grammar, use a basic grammar checker, like the kind of grammar checker that has come with MS word since the 1990s. But don't let a style-checker or an LLM rob you of your own voice.
I think "generated comments" is a pretty hard line in the sand, but "AI-edited" is anything but clear-cut.
PS - I think the idea behind these policies is positive and needed. I'm simply clarifying where it begins and ends.
It's better to communicate as an individual, warts and all, than to replace your expression with a sanitized one just because it seems "better." Language is an incredibly nuanced thing, it's best for people's own thoughts to come through exactly as they have written them.
The quality of my writing varies (based on my mood as much as anything else, I suppose), but when it is particularly good and error-free then I often get accused of being a bot.
Which is absurd, since I don't use the bot for writing at all.
How do you know? Is it possible the downvoters just didn't like what you said?
It suggests a bias in writers to assume that people would agree with them if only they could express their thoughts accurately.
I just want clean, easy-to-read content and I don't care about the person who wrote it. A tool like Grammarly is the difference between readable and unreadable (or understandable and understandable) for many people.
You could even write a plugin for your favorite web browser to do that to every site you visit.
It seems hard to achieve the inverse that is (would you rather I use i.e.?) rewrite this paragraph as the original author did before they had an AI re--write it to make it clean, (--do you like oxford commas, and em/en dashes! Just prompt your AI) and easier to read
I personally don't see a problem with someone using a grammar checker as long as they aren't just blindly accepting its suggestions. That said, if someone actually is using it in that way, it shouldn't be detectable anyway, so it probably doesn't matter all that much whether or not it's included in the letter of the rule.
But that creates a private version of the text which the original poster didn't sign off on. You could have fixed something contrary to their intent.
For those coming from a language other than English, you are more likely to lose information by using a tool to “reconstruct” meaning from poorly phrased English as an input, as opposed to the poster using a tool to generate meaningful English from their (presumably) well-written native language.
There is no need for that here beyond maybe spellcheck. Use your own thoughts, voice, and words.
It is definitely not true that it is better for a poster to communicate like an individual when it comes to spelling and grammar. People ignore posts that have poor grammar or spelling mistakes, and communications that have poor grammar are seen as unprofessional. Even I do it at a semi-subconscious level. The more difficult or the more amount of attention someone has to pay to understand your post, the less people will be willing to put in that effort to do so.
So yeah, it can change the character of your writing, even if it's just relatively subtle nudges here or there.
edit: we suggested that he disable that feature to help him learn to write independently, and he happily agreed.
As an adult, I do too. As a middle schooler, we absolutely used word processors’ thesaurus features to add big words to our essays because the teachers liked them.
Anyway before that she HATED the thesaurus. And she could tell when students were using it to make their writing more fancy pants.
I had two teachers who called us out on this, and actually coached us on our writing, and I remember them fondly. (They were also fans of in-class essaying.)
The others wanted to count big words.
A certain amount of friction is necessary, at least if the goal is to help the person learn or make something original.
1. A system that suggests words, the child learns the word, determines whether it matches their intent, and proceeds if they like the result.
2. A system that suggests words, and the child almost-blindly accepts them to get the task over with ASAP.
The end-results may look the same for any single short document, but in the long run... Well, I fear #2 is going to be way more common.
I was kindly told to use my own words. It was so disappointing to me. How dare they limit my creativity!
I’m sure your son was just as endeared as I to his creation but being an old fart now I’m more on my teacher’s side.
There are people here who sit at a desk all day banging out multipage emails for work who decide to write posts of a similar linguistic calibre for funsies.
Meanwhile you have someone in a developing country who just got off a brutal twelve hour shift doing manual labour in the sun who wants to participate in the conversation with an insightful message that they bang-out on a shitty little cellphone onscreen keyboard while riding on bumpy public transit.
You could have a great idea and express it poorly and be penalized for doing so here while someone could have a blah idea expressed excellently and it's showered in replies despite being in some metrics (the ones I think are most important) worse than the other post.
What's the solution for that?
Remember that you're on a message board and you're not actually 'competing' for anything?
I knew someone was going to comment on my use of the word there despite me putting it in quotes which was intended to let the reader know that I meant that word as an approximation of what I was meaning.
When I say competing I mean competing in the space of ideas here. There is a ranking system here that raises or lowers the visibility and prominance of your comments and it's based on upvotes by other uses. For better or worse people penalize comments with grammatical errors over ones that don't and that affects how much exposure other users have to the ideas that people write and how much interaction they get from them.
If that's the case why would somebody who has good ideas but poor expressive capability bother posting here if their comments are just going to get ignored over relatively vapid comments that are grammatically correct?
The guidelines state:
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse > Edit out swipes. > Don't be curmudgeonly.
On the best of days I manage to follow the rules, but I'm only human. If I run my comment through ChatGPT to try and help me edit out swipes on the bad days, that's not ok?
I'm not using ChatGPT to generate comments, but I've got the -4 comments to show that my "thoughts exactly as they have written them" isn't a winning move.
I benefit from my phone flagging spelling errors/typos for me. Maybe it uses AI or maybe it uses a simple dictionary for me. Maybe it might even catch a string of words when the conjunction isn't correct. That's all fair game, IMO. But it shouldn't be rewriting the sentence for me. And it shouldn't be automatically cleaning up my typos for me after I've hit "reply". That's on me.
It was asked that if "AI Generated Code" is just code suggested to you by a computer program, where does using the code that your IDE suggests in a dropdown? That's been around for decades. Is it LLM or "Gen AI" specific? If so, what specific aspect of that makes one use case good and one use case bad and what exactly separates them?
It's one of those situations where it seems easy to point at examples and say "this one's good and this one's bad", but when you need to write policy you start drowning in minutia.
IDE code suggestions come from the database of information built about your code base, like what classes have what methods. Each such suggestion is a derived work of the thing being worked on.
For me, the line is precisely at the point where a human has something they want to say. IMO - use the tools you need to say the thing you want to say; it's fine. The thing I, and many others here, object to is being asked to read reams of text that no-one could be bothered to write.
i type my comments without capitalization like i'm typing into some terminal because i'm lazy and people might hate it but i'm sure they prefer this to if i asked an LLM to rewrite what i type
your writing style is your personality, don't let a robot take it away from you
In fact, I'd argue that lazy commenting is the real problem, which has now been supercharged by LLMs.
When a policy is introduced to seemingly guard against new problems, but happens to be inadvertently targeting preexisting and common technology, I don't feel like it is "lawyering" it to want clarity on that line.
For example, it could be argued this forbids all spellcheckers. I don't think that is the implied intent, but the spectrum is huge in the spellchecker space. From simple substitutions + rule-based grammar engines through to n-grams, edit-distance algorithms, statistical machine translation, and transformer-based NLP models.
You forgot the /s ?
Ultimately, this comes down to people making a good-faith judgment about how much AI was involved, whether it was just minor grammatical fixes or something more substantial. The reality is that there isn’t really a shared consensus on exactly where that line should be drawn.
This is probably ok:
>> On a technical level, you can really only guard against software that changes your semantics or voice. If you're letting it alter the meaning (or meanings) you intend, or if it starts using words you would never normally use, then it's gone too far.
This is probably too far:
>>> On a technical level, it's important to recogn1ize that the only robust guardrail we can realistically implement is one that prevents modifications to core semantics or authorial voice. If you're comfortable allowing the system to refine or rephrase the precise meanings you originally intended — or if it begins incorporating vocabulary that doesn't align with your typical linguistic patterns — then you've likely crossed a meaningful threshold where the output no longer fully represents your authentic intent.
Something to consider is that you can analyze your own stylometric patterns over a large collection of your writing, and distill that into a system of rules and patterns to follow which AI can readily handle. It is technically possible, albeit tedious, to clone your style such that it's indistinguishable from your actual human writing, and can even icnlude spelling mistakes you've made before at a rate matching your actual writing.
AI editing is weird, though. Not seeing a need, unless English isn't your native language.
1. Prevent any account from submitting an actual link until it reaches X months old and Y karma (not just one or the other.)
2. Don't auto-link any URLs from said accounts until both thresholds in #1 are met, so they can't post their sites as clickable links in comments to get around it. Make it un-clickable or even [link removed] but keep the rest of the comment.
3. If an account is aged over X months/years old with 0 activity and starts posting > 2 times in < 24 hrs, flag for manual review. Not saying they're bots, but an MO is to use old/inactive accounts and suddenly start posting from them. I've seen plenty here registered in 2019-2021 and just start posting. Don't ban them right away, but flag for review so they don't post 20 times and then someone finally figures it out and emails hn@.
4. When submitting a comment, check last comment timestamp and compare. Many bots make the mistake of commenting multiple detailed times within sixty seconds or less. If somebody is submitting a comment with 30 words and just submitted a comment 30 seconds ago in an entirely different thread with 300 words, they might be Superman. Obviously a bot.
5. Add a dedicated "[flag bot]" button to users that meet certain requirements so they don't need to email hn@ manually every time. Or enable it to people that have shown they can point out bots to you via email already. Emailing dozens of times a day is going to get very annoying for those that care about the website and want to make sure it doesn't get overrun by bots.
Invites could be earned at karma and time thresholds, and mods could ideally ban not just one bad actor but every account in the invite chain if there’s bad behavior.
This feels like don't buy at Walmart, support the local small shop. We passed the no return sign miles ago.
Gemini's:
This is like advocating for artisanal blacksmithing in the age of industrial steel. It sounds great in theory, but we passed the point of no return miles back.
Yeah, we can tell the difference :)
That’s true. I’m fluent in German, but there’s still a difference between me and a native speaker. I’ve often seen my ideas dismissed, only for the exact same point to be praised later when a native speaker expresses it more clearly.
I now expect malapropism, hacker curtness, and implicits: TAIDR is the new TLDR.
The human touch of someone’s real voice myself, rather than a false veneer will carry more weight very soon.
This is tragic. I write English well and will employ grammar and word choice effectively to make an argument or get a point across. English was my best subject at school 45 years ago despite a career in tech. In fact, I’d suggest that my career as an architect and the need to convey concepts and argue trade-offs with stakeholders of varying backgrounds has honed that skill. Should I now dumb down my language or deliberately introduce errors in order to satisfy the barely literate or avoid being “detected” as an AI? (as if the latter were possible. It’s an arms race).
Language is a tool. If it wins the argument, yes. I’ve absolutely gone back through drafts to tighten up language and reduce word complexity. And if I’m typing with someone who frequently typos, I’ll sometimes reverse the autocorrect. Mostly as a joke to myself. But I imagine it helps me come across as less stuck up. (Truth: I’m a bit stuck up about language :P.)
While this is true, it is not just a tool. Or, I should say it’s a tool with far greater utility than just winning an argument or making a localised point. Language is how we think, and the ability to reason well is absolutely dependent on our skill with language.
Language is the mark of humanity in the sense that how else can I convey to you a fragment of my inner state? My emotions, my feelings, my desires. The language of poetry and literature. That which sparks an emotional response in another.
Dumbing down language is dumbing down period.
I agree. But I don’t always see it as dumbing down. James Joyce’s Portrait starts out with a lot of nonsense, that doesn’t mean it’s dumb or dumbed down. It’s just communicating something that is best described that way. Even to an erudite audience.
I have expertise in some topics. I don’t think of communicating that in lay terms to be dumbing down. The opposite, almost: finding good analogies and expressing them clearly is a lot of fun, even if what comes out the other end isn’t particularly sophisticated.
I've never sent or posted anything AI-written, beyond a pro-forma job description - because I don't know the domain-specific conventions, and HR returned my draft to me with the instruction to use ChatGPT, which I think amusing, but whatever: the output satisfied them, and I was able to get on with my day.
I occasionally experiment with putting something I've written through an LLM, and it's inevitably a blandifying of my original, which doesn't really say what I intended. But maybe that's good? My wife thinks I'm sometimes too blunt, and colleagues don't always appreciate being told technical details.
I also appreciate individuated writing - including the posts by people on this board are not native speakers. Grammatical mistakes seldom inhibit understanding when the writing has been done with care.
I'm rambling at this point, but it's because I'm truly uncertain how these cultural changes will turn out, and (an old man's complaint, since time immemorial!) pretty sure I'll end up one of the last of the dinosaurs, clinging to my manually written "voice" long after everyone else in the world has come to see my preferences quaint.
> Your arguments will come of as stronger to the reader.
That is persuasian, not authenticity, to the OP's point.
Typed without a spellchecker :).
Post the translation as best you can manage, and below it put the same comment in your original language. If someone has qualms with your comment having broken english/mistranslations they are welcome to run bits of original language themselves.
We're all here to talk about tech, and we aren't all perfect little english robots.
And that's where I think the guidelines could be expanded a bit more to restore the balance. Something along the line of 'HN is visited by people from all over the world and from many different cultural and linguistical backgrounds. Please respect that and realize that native English and Western background should not be automatically assumed. It is the message that counts, not the form in which it was presented.'.
(For example: If I’m trying to express a point about how we shouldn’t assume that dinner isn’t “her duty” but is instead “our duty”, a French-like aphorism expressed in English literally as “the chicken won’t fly into the oven unprompted” could plausibly be AI-translated instead as “don’t count your chickens before they hatch”, doing catastrophic damage to the point. To a machine translator those two aphorisms are not distinctive; but they are, even if it’s a weird expression in common U.S. English.)
Write it broken.
Broken and true is more authentic than polished and approximately so. When I see an AI-generated comment or email, I catch myself implicitly assuming it is—best case—bullshit. That isn’t the case if the grammar is off. (If anything, it can be charming.)
Besides, this isn't an English poetry forum. Language here is like gift wrapping for an idea: pleasant if pretty, but not the most important thing.
That may be a defect in me. Maybe I should make a stronger effort on such comments. But I suspect I'm not the only one who does that, and at that point it becomes an issue that affects the community as a whole.
At which point you’d be fully justified in using an AI to decode their text. I still think that’s a better world than pre-filtering.
I've seen enough GPT-generated slop that I find its style of writing very off-putting, and find it hurts the perceived competence or effort of the author when applied in the wrong context. I'm not sure if direct translation tools serve a better purpose here, but along with the other commenters, I personally find imperfect speech that was actually written "by hand" by the author easier and more straightforward to communicate with despite the imperfections. Also, non-ESL speakers make plenty of mistakes with grammar, spelling, etc. that humans are used to associating with "style" as authentic speech.
It can also become a crutch for language learners of any age / regardless of their primary language, that inhibits learning or finding one's own "style" of speech
"I don't fully agree with banning AI-edited comments. Using AI to improve readability and clarity is a reasonable thing to do. A well-structured comment is often much better than a braindump that reads like rambling. AI is quite good at this, and it will probably get better. To illustrate the point, here is how this comment would have looked if edited"
The AI comment might be clear, but it sounds like a press release, not a person, and there's nothing to engage with.
Easier to read ==> More likely to be read.
No, it's not saying the same thing, especially if the tool is telling you that your statement is ambiguous and should be rephrased.
Unless you are purposely train on that specific way to expression, it ain't easier to read.
While I do edit my comments to fix typos, certain spelling oddities and other peculiarities would be present.
Are there any places in life where conversation is _not_ intended to be between humans?
No one is confusing Cleetus McFarland with an AI bot.
1) That the entering of LLMs onto the scene of communication implies that real human beings need to change their style as a result.
2) That nobody can make an LLM talk like Cleetus McFarland.
To me, "I know that text is AI-generated" accusation smacks of the "We can always tell" discourse in the transphobia space. It's distasteful and rude.
A personality hardly shows through in a handful of sentences, besides which, I'd rather judge comments by merit than by the personality of the poster (hacker ethics, point number 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics)
I understand we often see insightful comments from new accounts, but I always find it suspicious when non-throwaway accounts are created just in time only to make a quip.
https://xkcd.com/386/ "Duty Calls"
In my observation, recently there are quite many new AI generated comments in general. Like not even trying to hide with full em-dashes and everything.
I do feel like people are gonna get sneaky in future but there are going to be multiple discussions about that within this thread.
But I find it pretty cool that HN takes a stance about it. HN rules essentially saying Bots need not comment is pretty great imo.
It's a bit of a cat and a mouse problem but so is buying upvotes in places like reddit but HN with its track record of decades might have one or two suspicious or actions but long term, it feels robust. I hope the same robustness applies in this case well hopefully.
Wishing moderation luck that bad actors don't try to take it as a challenge and leave our human community to ourselves :]
Another point I'd like to say is that, if successful, then we can also stop saying, "did you write your comment by LLM" and the remarks as well which I also say time to time when I see someone clearly using AI but it seems that some false-positives happen as well (they have happened sometimes with me and see it happen with others as well) and they also de-rail the discussion. So HN being a place for humans, by humans can fix that issue too.
Knowing dang and tomhow, I feel somewhat optimistic!
Similarly: If you see people making accusations of guidelines violations in a discussion, email the thread link to the mods with a subject like “Accusations in post discussion” and ask them to evaluate them for mod response; they’re always happy to do so and I’m easily clocking in a couple hundred emails a year of that sort to them.
It doesn’t take much to make HN better! And it only takes a moment to point out an overlooked corner of threads for mod review. No need to present a full legal case, just “FYI this seems to violate guideline xyz” is at minimum still helpful.
Even if you believe that prohibiting this is necessary to avoid what one might consider "AI witchhunting", bots are so prevalent now that being expected to communicate the existence of each one via email is unrealistic, for both the reporting users and the moderators. I think it's finally time to consider some sort of on-site report system.
So if your layer of cleanup is AI assisted, then it's in violation.
Part of the problem I was getting at is that the requirement of "Don't post AI edited ..." is stricter than necessary to ensure the outcome that "HN is for conversation between humans" because an AI edited post is still a human post.
Anyway, I suspect a lot of people are going to ignore that guideline and will feel free to use their "layer of cleanup" whether it's a basic spellchecker or an LLM, or whatever else they choose, and most people aren't going to be able to tell anyway. The guideline is unnecessarily strict in my opinion, but it doesn't matter in the end.
You may also notice that I don't have much common history here. I mostly comment on Reddit.
Here's where I draw the line. If you are not reading the text that is produced by the LLM, then I don't want to read whatever it is that you wrote. I will usually only do one or two iterations of my comment, but afterwards I will usually edit it by hand.
Technically, there is light AI editing of this comment because FUTO keyboard has the ability to enable a transformer model that will capitalize, punctuate, and just generally remove filler words and make it so that it's not a hyper-literal transcription.
I want the raw tokens straight out of your head. Even if they are lower quality, they contain something that LLMs can never generate: authenticity. When we surrender our thoughts to a machine to be sanitized before publication, we lose a little of what it means to be human, and so does everyone who reads what we write.
Part of the joy of reading is to wallow in a writer's idiosyncrasies. If everybody ends up writing the same way, AI companies will have succeeded in laundering all the joy from this world.
Humans write a bit messier — commas, short sentences, abrupt turns.
I acknowledge this is partly just my personal bias, in some cases really not fair, and unenforceable anyway, but someone relying on llms just makes me feel like they have... bad taste in information curation, or something, and I'd rather just not interact with them at all.
Unfortunately (a) is more common, and the backlash against has been removing the communinity incentive to provide (b).
If we want human "on the other end" we gotta get to ground truth. We're fighting a losing battle thinking that text-based forums can survive without some additional identity components.
But the "This is what ChatGPT said..." stuff feels almost like "Well I put it into a calculator and it said X." We can all trivially do that, so it really doesn't add anything to the conversation. And we never see the prompting, so any mistakes made in the prompting approach are hidden.
Look at Reddit… abundance of rules do not save that place at all. It’s all about curating what kind of people your site attracts. Reddit of course is a business so they don’t care about anything other than max number of ad views.
Small non profit forums should consciously design a site to deter group(s) of people that they do not want.
We've all pasted news articles into 2022 Google Translate and a modern LLM, right, and there was no comparison? LLMs even crushed DeepL. Satya had this little story his PR folks helped him with (j/k) even, via Wired June '23:
---
STEVEN LEVY: "Was there a single eureka moment that led you to go all in?"
SATYA NADELLA: "It was that ability to code, which led to our creating Copilot. But the first time I saw what is now called GPT-4, in the summer of 2022, was a mind-blowing experience. There is one query I always sort of use as a reference. Machine translation has been with us for a long time, and it's achieved a lot of great benchmarks, but it doesn't have the subtlety of capturing deep meaning in poetry. Growing up in Hyderabad, India, I'd dreamt about being able to read Persian poetry—in particular the work of Rumi, which has been translated into Urdu and then into English. GPT-4 did it, in one shot. It was not just a machine translation, but something that preserved the sovereignty of poetry across two language boundaries. And that's pretty cool."
---
edit: this comment has some comparisons incl. w/the old Google Translate I'm referring to:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40243219
Today Google Translate is Gemini, though maybe that's not the "traditional translation tool" you were referencing... but hope there's enough here to discuss any aspect that might be interesting!
edit2: March 2025 comparison-
https://lokalise.com/blog/what-is-the-best-llm-for-translati...
"falling behind LLM-based solutions", "consistently outperformed by LLMs", "Not matching top LLMs"
AI polished writing shaves away all those weird and charming edges until it's just boring.
I am one of those folks, and I’m strongly against AI writing for that use case as well.
The only reason I can communicate in English with some fluency is that I used it awkwardly on the internet for years. Don’t rob yourself of that learning process out of shyness, the AI crutch will make you progressively less capable.
Why do you need to communicate in English with us native English speakers? Why don't we need to learn your language to communicate with you?
The way I'm looking at it is that you're putting all this e ffort forward in learning how to communicate with people who would never without an outside pressure do the same for you.
If language learning is intrinsically a positive thing what can we do to encourage it in native speakers of English, specifically Americans who are monolingual (as they dominate this website)?
Imagine a scenario where Dang announced that we're only allowed to post in English one day week -- every day is dedicated to another language, like Spanish, Russian, Mandarin and the system auto deleted posts that weren't in those languages. Would that be a good thing? Would we see American users start to learn Spanish to post on HN on Tuesdays?
I don't care if they use an LLM to ask questions about grammar or whatever, as long as they write their own text after figuring out whatever it was they were struggling with.
What "loopholes" is the comment above referring to? I've looked, but I don't see them. I'm concerned the comment above is uncharitable of useful POVs.
In my view, humanity is at its best when we leverage tools and technology to think better. Let's be careful what policies we put in place. If we insist comments have no "traces of LLM" we might inadvertently lower the quality of discussion.
Telling an LLM to "refine" your writing is just lazy and it doesn't help you learn to express yourself better. Asking it for various ways of conveying something, and picking one that suits you when writing a comment is OK in my book.
The way I see it, people will repeat the same grammar and pronunciation mistakes, and use restricted vocabulary their whole lives, just because learning requires effort, and they can't be bothered.
I can accept that nobody is perfect, as long as they have the will to improve.
To me those are the same thing excepting the number of options given to the human...
Just pay a fucking technical writer. I just went straight to the documentation and poured through it myself.
I feel like my days are numbered though. All my coworkers are writing documentation with AI. Half the PRs I see are heavily LLM to the point the author can't explain it. Management praises the velocity.
I think I have to accept it and start myself or find a new career. I hate this so much. What the fuck did I spend the last decade for, curating my niche skillset for? So a data scientist can start making 1000 line PRs into our embedded repo in a language he doesn't know and can't explain, and I'm considered problematic for pushing back on it, and asking for tests and basic engineering practices? Enjoy the stack overflows, memory fragmentation, and segfaults I guess.
Yeah. It may be a bias but I have it too.
Whether a company/business uses an LLM or a real human to write a particular piece of text, that piece of text is entitled to free speech protections on the basis of the company signing off on it. Not on the basis of how that piece of writing was produced.
Once LLM generated speech or content start getting into the live answers of Q&A sessions, that would be sad. I know some people try to get through interviews, but I think that might be a bit harder to not detect.
But I have some concerns about suppression of comments from non-native English writers. More selfishly, my personal writing style has significant overlap with so-called "tells" for AI generated prose: things like "it's not X, it's Y", use of em-dashes, a fairly deep vocabulary, and a tendency toward verbosity (which I'm striving to curb). It'd be ironic if I start getting flagged as a bot, given I don't even use a spell-checker. Time will tell.
And of course, a more limited exception for posts about LLM behavior. It might be necessary for people to share prompts and outputs to discuss the topic.
The rule just makes the will of the community clear to those who want to respect it.
To be clear, I'm neither proud nor embarrassed by this. I'm just trying to communicate in the most efficient way I can.
I'm not sure how I feel about this new rule.
If you think your writing could use improvement, then write your comment and let it sit for a few minutes before re-reading it and the comment you are replying to, make your edits and then post it. It will give your brain time to reset and maybe spot something you didn't earlier.
Personally I would just like to read the best comments.
But yes, there is some irony there.
The limits to our adopting AI are not intrinsic to the technology; they have to do with (1) how much work we still do manually—the classic "we have no time to do the things that would cause the things that take all our time to take less of it"; and (2) the amount of psychic rewiring that's required—there's a limit to the RoA (rate of astonishment) that any human can absorb. (It fascinates me how technical people are the ones suffering the most from this; non-technical people have had to put up with disorienting rates of technical change for many years, so this is less of a paradigm shift for them. But that's another story.)
[editing - bear with me...]
Forum mechanics have always shaped discourse more than policies. Voting changed everything. The response to LLMs should be mechanical not moral — soft, invisible weighting against signals correlated with generated text. Imperfect but worth the tradeoff, just like voting.
https://claude.ai/share/9fcdcba8-726b-4190-b728-bb4246ff82cf
I’m so over these comments. Sure I can flag them but I feel like it deserves a special call out.
As I understand it, HN moderators are thinking hard about this insane new world.* From my POV, there are a combination of worthy goals: transparency of the process, mechanisms for appeal, overall signal-to-noise ratio, and (something all of us can do better) more empathy and intellectual honestly. It isn't kind to accuse a human being of not being a human being.
If we can't find ways to be kind to people because of the new dynamic, maybe we need to figure out a new dynamic! And it isn't just about individuals; it is about the culture and the system and the technology we're embedded in.
* Aside: I'm not sure that any of us really can grasp the magnitude of what is happening -- this is kuh-ray-Z.
I definitely agree with AI generated comments.
Whatever the rules are, I’m happy to play by them.
That's the spirit!
This rule will have an effect on the behaviour of the 'good players', and make the 'bad players' a lot easier to spot. Moderation needs this. I see this as stopping a race-to-the-bottom on value extraction from HN as a platform.
The biggest danger of LLMs is impersonating humans. Obviously they have been carefully constructed to be socially appealing. Think of the motivation behind that:
It is almost completely unnecessary to LLM function and it's main application is to deceive and manipulate. Legal regulation of LLMs should ban impersonation of humans, including anthropomorphism (and so should HN's regulation). Call an LLM 'software' and label it's output as 'output'.
Imagine how many problems would be solved by that rule. Yes, it's not universally enforceable, but attach a big enough penalty and known people and corporations will not do it, and most people will decide it's not worth it.
I asked [insert LLM here] about this, and it said [nonsense goes here]
I feel Like I see it less this week, but every time I do see it I wonder why they are even here.
@dang, if you read this, why don't we implement honeypots to catch bots? Like having an empty or invisible field while posting/commenting that a human would never fill in
Rules like this seem to me more like fomenting witch hunting of "AI comments" than it is about improving the dialogue. Just about any place I've seen take this hardline stance doesn't improve, it just becomes filled with more people who want to want to pat each other on the back about how bad AI is.
Just my two cents. I don't filter my comments through any AI, but I am empathetic for people who might have great use of them to connect them to the conversation.
And even if we could, for how long?
Reality is that AI is changing everything. Whether for the good or for the bad it's something to check.
But here's where it gets tricky: Do I prefer low-effort, off-the-top-of-my-head reactions, as long as it is human? Or do I want an insightful, well-thought-out response, even if it is LLM-enhanced?
Am I here to read authentic humans because I value authenticity for its own sake (like preferring Champagne instead of sparkling wine)? Or do I value authentic human output because I expect it to be of higher quality?
I confess that it is a little of both. But it wouldn't surprise me if someday LLM-enhanced output becomes sufficiently superior to average human output that the choice to stick with authentic human output will be more painful.
I'd argue that anything insightful or well-though-out doesn't use LLMs at all. We can quibble over whether discussions with an LLM lead to insightful responses, but that still isn't your own personal thought. Just type what's on your mind, it's not that hard and nitpicking over this is just looking for ways to open up unnecessary opportunities for abuse.
Anyone learning the language and some people with learning disabilities, for example, may communicate better via an LLM.
This is an artificial dichotomy. HN’s guidelines specify thoughtful, curious discussion as a specific goal. One-off / pithy / sarcastic throwaway comments are generally unwelcome, however popular they are. Insightful responses can be three words, ten seconds to write and submit, and still be absolutely invaluable. Well-thought-out responses are also always appreciated, even if they tend to attract fewer upvotes than a generic copy-paste rabble-rousing sentiment about DRM or GPL or Apple that’s been copy-pasted to the past hundred posts about that topic. But LLM-enhanced responses are not only unwelcome but now outright prohibited.
Better an HN with fewer posts than an HN with AI writing. We’ve been drowned in Show HN by quantity as proof of this already.
The value proposition is that someone who is a lousy writer (perhaps only in English) with deep domain knowledge is going back and forth with the LLM to express some insight or communicate some information that the LLM would not produce on its own.
Mate, Champagne is a sparkling wine. In French you can even at times hear people asking for "un vin mousseux de Champagne" meaning "a sparkling wine from Champagne" instead of the short form (just saying "un Champagne" or "du Champagne").
Now, granted, not all sparkling wine are Champagne.
The Wikipedia entry begins with: "Champagne is a sparkling wine originated and produced in the Champagne wine region of France...".
I drank enough of it to be stating my case, of which I'm certain!
P.S: and btw, yup, authentic humans content only here, even if it's of "low quality". If I want LLM, I've got my LLMs.
And no, I wouldn't think an HN post is it either.. I'm just saying, there should be a good place to post the output of good questions asked iteratively.
It's very funny to imagine people prompting: "Write a compelling comment, for me, to pass off as my thoughts, for this HN news thread, which will attract both upvotes and engagement.".
In good faith, per the guidelines: What losers!
Still plenty of aislop on this site, and, to be honest, I would be surprised if that line had any effect on it, whatsoever. It's not like folks pay attention to what's already there.
I hope to see more bots on there (and not here)
> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics
“most”
“extremely significant”
What’s extremely significant for someone is an offtopic for someone else and vice versa
And despite what people say, the way you write is very much judged as an indication of your education and intelligence.
People who don't like the use of AI to help you write really don't want those signals to go away.
They want to be able to continue to judge others based on their English grammar instead of on the content of their writing.
Edit for amichail, since I'm rate-limited at the moment: I don't want flawless English writing. I want real ideas from real people. If I wanted flawless English writing, I'd be reading The New Yorker, not HN.
Good argument for it but I think 80/20 split applies here. It is likely that 80% of the time it is used to farm for upvotes and add noise.
> And despite what people say, the way you write is very much judged as an indication of your education and intelligence.
I have come across plenty of content and online interactions in English where English was the Author's 2nd or even 3rd language and I find that putting a small disclaimer about this fact is more than enough to bypass such judgement.
I strongly doubt it. My AIs can generate infinite HN comments for me. I don’t do that because it isn’t interesting. But if the day arises where it is, I want that personalized content. Not something someone else copy pasted.
(I say this as someone who finds Moltbook fascinating and push myself to use AI more in my work and day-to-day life. The fact that it’s borderline trivial to figure out which HN comments are AI generated speaks to the motivation behind this guideline.)
Without some kind of private proof of personhood enforced at the app level, this means nothing.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
I don't think it is a moral failing to use AI to generate writing or to use it to brainstorm ideas and crystalize them, but c'mon isn't it weird to insist that you need them to write _comments_ on the internet? What happens when the AI decides you're wrongthinking?
Plenty of people already use search engines, editors, translators, etc. when writing. An LLM is just another tool in that box.
The practical approach is the one HN has always used: judge the content.
Btw, this was co written with ChatGPT. Does that make any difference to anyone?
J/K, actually it was not co written by ChatGPT.
Or maybe it was…
AI is a tool. You can use it constructively, like Grammarly, or spellcheck. You don't need to be afraid of it.
It can't. It will rewrite anything you give it.
> it can verify your claims before posting
It can't.
> You don't need to be afraid of it
Nobody is afraid of it. It's annoying. General population cannot be trusted to use it in whatever idealistic way you are imagining.
Bit of a shameless plug but I wrote a HN AI comment detector game[0] with AI and most of my friends and fellow HN users who tried it out couldn't detect them.
Some of us were trained/self taught to write that way. Even "it's not X, it's Y" is a legitimate and subjectively effective communication tool, and there are those of us who either by training modeling have picked it up as a habit. It's not Ai that started this, Ai learned it from us.
Crap - I just did it, didn't I? Awww double crap! Did it again...
So I think it's fine to scrutinize commenters who write that way.
Besides, the biggest offense of AI speak is making everything seem like a grand epiphany and revolutionary discovery. Aka engagement bait.
This is another reason why it's good to email us (hn@ycombinator.com) rather than commenting when you see generated comments.
I see this all the time, and even if I find the topic interesting, I don’t want to see comments littered with discussion about how the content was AI generated.
To be clear, I'm not condoning AI-generated content. I’m completely fine if the community chooses to not upvote AI-generated content, or flagging it off the FP.
But many threads can turn into nothing but AI complaints, and it’s just not interesting.
I was thinking, this argument is suspicously cogent!
It's just a tool ffs! there are many issues with LLM abuse, but this sort of over-compensation is exactly the sort of stuff that makes it hard to get abuse under control.
You're still talking with a human!, there is no actual "AI" you're not talking to an actual artificial intelligence. "don't message me unless you've written it with ink, on papyrus". There is a world of difference between grammarly and an autonomous agent creating comments on its own. Specifics, context, and nuance matter.
If you discuss an idea with AI, then close the window and write a post about how you came up with the idea, got stuck, decided to ping an AI for unstuck-ness, describe how the AI’s response got you unstuck, and then continue writing about your idea, that’s not going to be necessarily treated as AI-assisted writing — but people are going to be extremely suspicious of you, because the perception is that 99.9% of people who use chatbots go on to submit AI-assisted writing. That’s probably more like 90% in reality but it’s something to be aware of as you talk about your experiences.
If you use AI in your process and don’t disclose it when writing about your idea and process, that’s generally viewed as lying-by-omission and if egregious enough you could end up downvoted, flagged, and/or banned (see also the recent video game awards / AI usage affair). Better to disclose it with due care than to hide it.
My only caution is that good writers and LLMs look very similar, because LLMs were trained on a corpus of good writers. Good writers use semicolons and em-dashes. Sometimes we used bulleted lists or Oxford commas.
So we should make sure to follow that other HN rule, and assume the person on the other end is a good faith actor, and be cautious about accusing someone of using AI.
(I've been accused multiple times of being an AI after writing long well written comments 100% by hand)
Like, sure, LLM writing is almost always grammatically correct, spelled correctly, formatted correctly, etc., which tends to be true of good writing. But there's a certain style that it just can't get away from. It's not just the em-dashes, the semi-colons, or the bulleted lists. It's the short, punchy sentences, with few-to-no asides or digressions. Often using idiom, but only in a stale, trite, and homogenized manner. Real humans, are each different -- which lends a certain unpredictability to our writing, even if trying to write to a semi-formal standard, the way "good" writers often do -- but LLMs are all so painfully the same, and the output shows it.
->> ◕ ‿ ◕ <<--
Re-reading the HN guidelines, each seems individually reasonable, yet collectively I’m worried that they create an environment where we can take issue with almost anyone’s comments (as per Cardinal Richelieu’s famous quote: “Give me six lines written by the most honorable person alive, and I shall find enough in them to condemn them to the gallows.”)
Really, all the rules can be compressed into one dictum: don’t be an arsehole. And yet the free speech absolutists will rail against the infringement upon their right to be an arsehole. So where does that leave us? Too many rules leads to suppression of even reasonable speech, while too few leads to a “flight” of reasonable speech. End result: enshitification.
Today it flagged a post about an AI tool for HN and suggested I reply with:
"honestly, if you need an AI to sift through hn, you might be missing the point—this place is about the human touch. but hey, maybe it'll help some folks who just can't take the noise anymore."
So my AI, which I built specifically to sift through HN for me, is telling me to go flame someone else for doing that.
No deeper point here. I just thought it was really funny.
Maybe once enough posts have been flagged like that then that corpus could be used to train an AI to automatically detect content generated by AI.
That would be cool.
Maybe the HN site wouldn't add this feature but if someone wrote a client then maybe it could be added there.
A nice side effect is that it will double as a confirmation step, solving the FFF (fat finger flagging) problem.
Fortunately I found some things we could cut as well, so https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html actually got shorter.
---
Edit: here are the bits I cut:
Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures.
It's implicit in submitting something that you think it's important.
Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it.
If you flag, please don't also comment that you did.
I hate cutting any of pg's original language, which to me is classic, but as an editor he himself is relentless, and all of those bits—while still rules—no longer reflect risks to the site. I don't think we have to worry about cute animal pictures taking over HN.
Exactly when was this point added? It seems somehow not new, but on the other hand it was missing from an archive.today snapshot I found from last July. (I cannot get archive.org to give me anything useful here.)
Edit:
> Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it.
> If you flag, please don't also comment that you did.
Perhaps these points (and the thing about trivial annoyances, etc.) should be rolled up into a general "please don't post meta commentary outside of explicit site meta discussion"?
It’s an instruction for how to use the site. It’s helpful to have it in the guidelines for when the flag feature should be used. Without it, the flag link is much more ominous.
Maybe it could be consolidated with the flag-egregious-comments rule?
Edit to add: IMHO it is not at all obvious on this site that flagging stories is meant to be roughly the equivalent of downvoting comments (and that flagging comments doesn’t have a counterpart at the story level).
Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
Those lowbrow assholes deserve their fate.
#sneer #fulminateThis rule actually says "Don't admit when you are using AI to generate comments and don't admit when you are an AI"
I know it's cynical, but this is as meaningful as reddit's "upvote/downvote is not an agree/disagree or like/dislike button"
People may hate that this is true, but I cannot logically reason out how a rule like this could work. I think it's better to just accept that AI is now part of the circle, until we can figure out a "human check".
Consider a much more cynical view where people are strictly self-interested and use these tools to garner engagement and self-promotion. Good chance the meaning did not originate from the person. And now these people have tools to outsource their parasitic intentions.
An LLM summarizing the contents of a blog post might be useful to you, but is a comment here the right place for something you could geneate on your own?
I would guess for most people here, real insight or opinions from others is the "useful" aspect of reading hackernews comments.
Using LLMs to generate or refine comments only moves things further away from that goal (in my opinion).
Do we not think that other people want to see words, pictures, software, and videos created by humans too?
I come here for thoughtful discussion, a break from the relentless growing proportion of ai slop emails I get from people clearly vibe working.
Not edits for tone or clarity, 400+ word emails full of LLM BS they clearly haven’t checked or even understood what they have sent. Annoyingly this vibe slop is currently seen as a good KPI.
But when I argue on the internet, it's always a 100% me.
And if I get a wiff of LLM-speak from whoever I'm wrestling in the mud with at the moment, they'll instantly get an entry in my plonk-file. I can talk with ChatGPT on my own thank you very much, I don't need a human in between.
"But my <language> is bad... that's why I use LLMs"
So was mine when I started arguing with strangers on the internet. It's better now. Now I can argue in 3 different languages, almost 4 =)
Humans with morals follow rules, sometimes. Probabilistic software acting autonomously or following commands from amoral humans doesn't.
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My analysis could lead to "it's doomed" or "it's a gateway drug that expands the crypto market".
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