But at the same time there is a quote by Stanisław Lem...
"Until I used the Internet, I didn't know there were so many idiots in the world"
We already had that, it's called shortwave radio. The internet, especially as it's implemented and as it's used, is a terrible way to achieve this. It's service providers the whole way down.
Just split the address into two 32-bit chunks (call the top word the "pool", bottom word "address") and assign the full IPV4 range to pool 0x00000000. Done.
But then think about what the routing tables would look like, how would an IPv4-only host find an IPv6 host not in pool 0? You'd be reinventing NAT, but in a less-structured context than how NAT works today. There's more issues to it too.
If it was really that simple they would have done exactly that. "Just adding more bits to IPv4" just isn't possible to do backwards-compatibly. IPv6 is the closest you can get to that while also dealing with the complexity that arises with longer addresses.
Ah.
But to stick with the ASCII->UTF-8 comparison: how would you have done the transition if you had to stay within ASCII's size of 7 bits?
UTF-8 is convenient because ASCII has a spare bit, but UTF-8 is fundamentally possible because ASCII is variable-length. IPv4 is not variable-length.
So 10.20.30.40 would be an IPv4 address, and 10.20.30.40:fa:be:4c:9d could be an IPv6 address. With the :00:00:00:00 suffix being equivalent to the IPv4 version.
I just made this up, so I'm sure that a couple years of deep thought by a council of scientists and engineers could come up with something even better.
What I argued was that IPv4 could be embedded into IPv6 address space if they had designed for it. But I agree, that the actual packet header layouts would need to look at least a bit different.
& the following section for the follow-up embedding.
- How they would format the display of the bits
- Where in the bit pattern IPv4 mapped addresses should go
- Coming up with some variation of NAT64, NAT464, or similar concepts to communicate between/over IPv4 and IPv6 networks
- Blaming the optional extensions/features of IPv6 for being too complex and then inventing something which has 90% of the same parts which are actually required to use
It's even easy to get distracted in a world of "what you can do with IPv6" instead of just using the basics. The things that actually make IPv6 adoption slow are:
- A change in the size of the address field which requires special changes and configuration in network gear, operating systems, and apps because it's not just one protocol to think about the transport of again until the migration is 100% complete.
If IPv4 were more painfully broken then the switch would have happened long ago. People just don't care to move fast because they don't need to. IPv6 itself is fine though and, ironically, it's the ones getting the most value out of the optional extensions (such as cellular providers) who actually started to drive IPv6 adoption.
But that should be a perfect playground for an IPv6-only network that has gateways to the IPv4 content; eventually the home-developed content will begin to drive demand elsewhere.
If India were to turn off IPv4, it would be a great incentive for IPv4-only sites in the US and Europe to add an IPv6 address.
The people who have to make networks work need to know how IPv6 works - but there is no getting around that - they know how IPv4 works too.
Listen here, if there is a networking technology or feature that I wasn't forced learn when I half-assed a SOHO router config in 2005, then it shouldn't exist at all.
The trouble is that 1) my employers do not have native ipv6 access; 2) neither does my mobile connection; and 3) really nor do a lot of my friends. Moreover, 4) if you browse a website from a native world-reachable ipv6 address, you're fingerprinted by it and it's overwhelmingly unique to you. So, it doesn't really work for hosting, and I don't get any direct benefits from it.
Instead I have a vps with a public ipv4 address and have a router that creates a wireguard tunnel to it. The reverse proxy works great over ipv6 and I am now in a position where I can forward ports and have direct connections -- albeit with hugely increased technical complexity. Ipv6 has many great ideas in it. If it's universally used it might just catch on...
It’s clumsier than ipv4. It’s unnecessary since NAT was invented. In practice IPv6 requires dual stack, which means twice as many firewalls, names and routes to manage — so 4x the debugging because you have 2 dimensions that can either be working or failing. Addresses are too long to remember, too clumsy to write, and after 30 years still don’t have consistent representation (how many colons and brackets?).
Look, IPv6 has some benefits, but until the usability is fixed, it will be another 30 years before it’s close to 95% adoption.
10 years ago I was all gung-ho about IPv6, but it's annoying at every level.
``` > ping6 google.com PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) 2605:59c0:236f:3a08:7883:9d04:c26d:5fa1 --> 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=0 hlim=117 time=22.262 ms 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=1 hlim=117 time=26.124 ms 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=2 hlim=117 time=26.807 ms ^C --- google.com ping6 statistics --- 3 packets transmitted, 3 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 22.262/25.064/26.807/2.001 ms ```
Many here will be familiar with the second system effect [1]. Usually people want to avoid making breaking changes but once they do, they can go a little nuts. My personal opinion is only major versions should make breaking changes and a lot of thought should go into making them as painless as possible.
IPv6 is fascinating for these reasons but also that it's a product of its time in two main ways:
1. It doesn't do anything about roaming because that wasn't an issue in the 1990s but it certainly is now;
2. A 64 bit address space would've basically been infinite addresses but instead they went with 128 bit addresses (rolling in ports) but then giving individual users a /64 address range. For some reason people deny it now or simply weren't aware but that too is a historical artifact because it was intended to put a 48 bit MAC address into that space but later we realized that's a huge PII and tracking issue; and
3. History has shown that upgrading network backbone hardware (in particular) is incredibly difficult through a process that's been described as "ossification", which is a nice description. Basically, network relays and routers wanted to avoid security issues and decided to discard things they didn't understand.
That's interesting because it violates Postel's Law [2], which basically says be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send.
But this shows up in all sorts of interesting ways, like it's practically impossible to reliably use MTUs larger than about 1536. When IPv4 was designed, that wasn't an issue. With 1-100G+ networks it is. There are RFCs about using large MTUs but you're dependent on backbone hardware you have no control over.
Even Linux struggles with this, to the point where you need to do some configuration for high-bandwidth networks (eg RPS [3]). Just handling all those interrupts presents a bunch of problems beyond the original scope. And again, it's hard to fix through no fault of Linux's.
I'm old enough to remember the talk about us running out of IPv4 addresses back in the 1990s. It's been interesting to watch how this has consistently been kicked down the street (eg cgNAT).
What is funny though is large companies (eg Facebook) actualy ran out of internal addresses on a 10/8 network and there's no good solution for that (with IPv4 at least).
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
PS: I'm talking about MSO hardware. But client hardware should be at the same level of compatibility for years too.
$ ping6 github.com
ping6: github.com: Address family for hostname not supportedI never use them on my web, chat, voice, IRC and other servers as I personally find blocking shenanigans on IPv4 and not having to implement the same checks on IPv6 is just easier for a lazy person like me. IPv6 just feels like an after-thought bolt on to me. Clunky, not well thought out. Some privacy gotchas that can be disabled but some will not. That's just my take. I doubt anyone will have the same take. I think IPv4 will be fine for another 100 years even if we have to re-purpose some DoD/MoD ranges given they don't use them and maybe annex some /8's from a few greedy companies. But that's a problem for Gen Delta. Gen Foxtrot can deal with repurposing some multicast ranges.
mono442•1h ago
dogleash•1h ago