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Wire to Replace Signal as Standard in the Bundestag

https://www.heise.de/en/news/Digital-Sovereignty-Wire-to-Replace-Signal-as-Standard-in-the-Bundestag-11275755.html
41•raffael_de•1h ago

Comments

internet_points•1h ago
Wire seems fine, better than many alternatives, but ditching Signal because of the possibility for phishing seems very odd?
iugtmkbdfil834•1h ago
As an argument, it barely passes initial scrutiny suggesting the real reason is not that.
tosti•48m ago
My tin foil hat says it has something to do with chat control, i.e. being able to intercept messages or to siphon messages from Alice or Bob directly.
rrr_oh_man•16m ago
Ding ding ding
internet_points•13m ago
She's suggesting her own group of contacts should switch to something that makes it easier to intercept her own messages?
Grumbledour•27m ago
The bundestags president, Julia Klöckner, was recently a victim of phishing on signal. While there could be different motives behind her suggestion, I think they are just another facet of her not really understanding technology and security practices.

She thinks she was "hacked" on signal, and now wants to switch to something which is clearly better! Let's wait where she will want to go once she gets "hacked" there too...

While there are valid reasons for germans not to want their politicians to use private messenger apps on their private phones for official business, and american ones at that, this switch would of course change nothing about all of these problems. But at least they can claim they did something, right?

beeforpork•30m ago
Odd? No, it's normal politician behaviour. Julia Klöckner herself got hacked because she is not aware of phishing. To distract from her incompetence, she urges to switch to Wire to implicitly blame Signal. It's obvious what's going on, but people have so little knowledge about digital communication and security that she will get away with it. Poor woman got hacked by insecure Signal, people will remember.
eembees•1h ago
> The Bundestag administration actively provides Wire as an alternative to commercial platforms such as WhatsApp or Signal.

Any idea why Signal is deemed a "commercial platform" by DBT administration?

anthonj•1h ago
It's owned by an American no-prrofit with a dedicated subsidiary, so still a commercial product and (more relevant) usa-based with all the potential implications. Wire is for profit but german-swiss.
mr_mitm•43m ago
Wire is also a commercial product though
zarzavat•32m ago
It's a commercial entity that is within EU jurisdiction, whereas Signal is within US jurisdiction. The distinction is important if for example a hostile country were to invade the territory of an EU member state, let's say a large island...
dmos62•1h ago
Anybody care to give their take on which alternative messengers are better for everyday use? Alternative as in not owned by mega corps. Does Signal have the best UX for non-technical people or casual use? Would be nice to move some conversations over to such a messenger, but don't want to force the other parties to experiment too much.
jraph•54m ago
Are Wire, Signal, Telegram backed by mega corps though?
dmos62•40m ago
I meant that as some candidates that aren't backed by mega corps.
jraph•24m ago
Ah, okay. I see you rephrased.
dmos62•22m ago
Yeah, sorry for omitting an edit message.
boredishBoi•48m ago
Beeper is owned by Automattic (of Wordpress fame). They’re a corp but I wouldn’t call them mega and they use matrix which is an open federated protocol.

You can run your own matrix server but tbh it’s easier for someone else to do it.

Not to mention the obvious advantages of their bridges into the closed networks of WhatsApp/fb/x/instagram etc

fsflover•48m ago
https://matrix.org
throawayonthe•25m ago
signal 100% has the best UX for non-technical users out of messengers i'd actually consider reasonably secure

the best on ux is probably telegram, but i'm trying to move a few people off it anyway

Mashimo•17m ago
I have 70+ year old relatives who use Signal. It works quite nice. Similar to whatsapp.
Markoff•6m ago
the ones most of your contacts use, what's the point finding perfect messenger if nobody you know use it and you must move people over there and anyway keep installed other app for most of the contacts?

here you have chart comparison

https://www.messenger-matrix.de/messenger-matrix-en.html

and alternative

https://www.securemessagingapps.com

personally I like Element (Matrix) and Threema

delis-thumbs-7e•57m ago
This site seems to demand cookie consent for access (is that legal in EU anyway?) so can somepne provode tl;dr?
victorbjorklund•43m ago
It is a grey zone. Some of the data protection authorities in EU have said that it's okay to do pay or consent while others have said it's not okay and it hasn't been tested by the EU court yet.
Grumbledour•25m ago
I think the law is actually pretty clear on that front, that it is not ok, but in the meantime, all the big publishers do it and make so much money, they actually don't care much about fines, especially given the chance they might get levied against a competitor first, at which point they can quickly change that behaviour.

As so often, the biggest GDPR problem is missing enforcement.

solarkraft•11m ago
It’s called “pay or okay” and condemned by noyb: https://noyb.eu/en/noybs-pay-or-okay-report-how-companies-ma...

But actual enforcement of GDPR has always been shoddy. First the “legitimate use” loophole, now this.

It’s a bit ironic that heise does this, since they probably have one of the most sensitive readerships to this.

crimsoneer•41m ago
This seems silly. Signal is great, let's not all start spinning up our own dedicated, not interoperable national messenger applications.
dmos62•39m ago
Europe wants to use European infrastructure. Reasons given are politeness.
PeterSmit•32m ago
Which makes total sense given the current political situation.
otabdeveloper4•24m ago
Kumbaya?

Good idea, let's all live in peace and harmony. (But first we need to sanction and regime change all the bad countries.)

Grumbledour•20m ago
The problem though is, using undocummented communication channels on private phones by people not technically inclined. That Signal is an american company and subject to NSA scrutiny while the users a politicians of a foreign goverment only makes this worse.

So, national messengers, controlled by experts, that archive communication and run on trusted hardware, would be the best solution for the work of democratic goverments I would think.

Of course, the possibility of software quality and security experts in service of the goverment is probably just wishful thinking.

c0l0•24m ago
One of my most esteemed former co-workers used to say that whenever you succeed in making something idiot-proof, the universe will create a better idiot, undoing any progress you made.
arianvanp•24m ago
Working on the foundation of this (getting Wire deployed at and certified by the BSI) was my first job out of college 7 years ago and how I ended up in Berlin. And once you end up in Berlin you can never leave, it seems.

I was actually on site at the Bundeskanzleramt and they had requirements of being able to install the entire server stack airgapped. We ended up building quite a cool delivery method based on Nix to ship the whole closure of the system and the containers inside and spin up a Kubernetes cluster with it. I'm wondering if it is still being used.

Amazing to see it's still going strong :)

rrr_oh_man•17m ago

  > first job out of college 7 years ago
  > Amazing to see it's still going strong
Yup, sounds like a government project...
raihansaputra•10m ago
What was the media for updates? Send them a CD or a flashdisk and they plug it in? I assume the PVC backing etc they handle on their own?
Arathorn•16m ago
there is a definite irony in switching from being vendorlocked to Signal (open source but closed and locked to a US non-profit) to being vendorlocked to Wire (open source but closed and locked to a German/Swiss for-profit) - talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire :)

Meanwhile the rest of Europe (and much of the rest of Germany) seems to have converged on Matrix as a genuine open standard with various different commercial vendors (Element, Rocket Chat, Famedly, connect2x etc), avoiding vendor lock and so giving actual digital sovereignty: https://element.io/matrix-in-europe

Havoc•11m ago
> often, the technology is not the weak point, but the human.

Also doesn’t help that the humans doing the legislating tend to be of the “I print out my emails” generation

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