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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

https://www.admin.ch/en/sustainability-initiative
85•napolux•1h ago

Comments

amtamt•1h ago
This seems a much more rational approach than pure political agenda driven fear mongering campaigns against immigrants.
lukan•55m ago
Hm. Are there any difference in the consequences for the immigrants, if they are kicked out because of arbitrary population cap, instead of anti-migration laws?
fractallyte•47m ago
Why would you assume the population cap is arbitrary? There's a calculable limit to the population an area of land can sustain. (Yes, some agricultural practices can mitigate that, but that should also be weighed against culture and history, and how much change is acceptable.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

d1sxeyes•46m ago
As far as I understand, action begins when the population hits 9.5M, so likely no-one gets kicked out, but fewer new visas will be approved, etc.
herbst•41m ago
This. As immigrant I don't feel threatened by this at all. I can't vote, and I wouldn't vote for SVP but as far as I can tell this makes kinda sense.
lukan•34m ago
I am pretty sure there are many people living in swiss with temporary visa's and those will then be de facto kicked out, if they do not get their permissions extended.
amunozo•54m ago
What's rational in the arbitrary number of 10 millions for no reason at allM
naths88•52m ago
It is completely irrational. But the UDC knows it, pure manipulation of the masses.
herbst•39m ago
It's not completely irrational. It's a fixed placative number yes.

But reality is also we don't produce more food than we already do. More people means more import and it's actually lowering the quality of the available food, making shopping more complicated, etc. And that's just the food quality aspect, what about pensions? Health care? ...

foldr•7m ago
>what about pensions? Health care?

What about health care if there's no more 'room' for the immigrants who make up a substantial fraction of health workers in Switzerland?

acivitillo•53m ago
What is rational about this exactly? They share no borders with the countries most immigrants come from, they are moving the problem to Spain, Italy, Greece.
FabCH•50m ago
Vast majority of immigrants to Switzerland come from Spain, Italy, Greece and other EU countries…
tonfa•38m ago
Germany (16% of recent immigration), followed by France and Italy (12% and 11%).

https://cms.news.admin.ch/fileservice/sdweb-docs-prod-nsbcch...

(page 5)

FabCH•51m ago
This is about Swiss - EU relations. Everyone understands that a yes vote means the Swiss equivalent of „exiting the EU“.

All Swiss-EU contracts contain a „Guillotine clause“ where if one contract is broken, all are immediately gone. The initiative explicitly requires breaking the freedom of movement contract, which immediately severs all other links to the EU.

This _is_ pure political agenda driven campaign using immigrants.

seanmcdirmid•48m ago
This is not a vote for Switzerland to exit the EU...for obvious reasons. It is a vote to exit the Schengen.
FabCH•45m ago
Which immediately triggers the guillotine clause in all other bilateral treaties including movement of goods and services, Horizon, energy market etc.

„Exiting the EU“ is a perfectly adequate way to summarize it to a world audience that doesn’t care about the details.

tonfa•44m ago
"the swiss equivalent"

As OP explains, freedom of movement can't be stopped in isolation from the rest of the bilaterals.

(btw funnily Schengen is just about the border control, we're talking about freedom of movement which is a different thing, e.g. UK wasn't in Schengen but the freedom of movement applied to UK as well before brexit, tho I guess people use Schengen interchangeably)

soco•43m ago
Even worse then - no more visa free travel, and no more international collaboration on crime. I must wonder, who would profit from these?
slopinthebag•50m ago
I agree. Every country has a limit, unspoken or not, let the people decide. Anything less is undemocratic.
jrflo•1h ago
So this is essentially a way to reduce immigration to the country? And if they get close to the cap they will "need to take measures, particularly in the areas of asylum and family reunification."

Would be curious to learn more about why this is being proposed.

naths88•57m ago
Here you go (if you understand French, German, Italian or Romansh, there is a video)

https://www.admin.ch/fr/initiative-durabilite

https://www.udc.ch/actualites/campagnes/pas-de-suisse-a-10-m...

soco•56m ago
The initiator party wants to get Switzerland out of Schengen and of the EU bilaterals - which will happen as a consequence if this passes. Like a Brexit, basically.

Edit: but the CHexit will work just fine, because of the Swiss exceptionalism.

amunozo•54m ago
Way worse than Brexit, as Switzerland is much smaller, landlocked and had no colonies or anything like that. This would be a suicide for the country. Just populism to mobilize the electorate.
greenavocado•53m ago
Imagine how crazy it is to call a population cap an act of "suicide."
shevy-java•54m ago
Great that they can vote, but this is also stupid. Plus, it works both ways, so if Switzerland wants to add a cap to limit movement then it won't be able to enjoy free movement in the EU either. I totally understand why Norway and Switzerland do not want to join the EU; the EU has tons of problems, but this kind of cherry-picking is simply unfair to the other EU members. (Also, the EU has to stop expanding. It constantly picks up poor countries, and demands that the richer EU countries must now pay more than before. This is also totally unfair.)
mrazomor•36m ago
It's not about free movement, but "free trade"/joint market.

Having rich countries support its poor neighbors is an ingenious solution to improving your quality of life. You impose your rules, regulations and monetary policy, they get capital for internal improvements. If there's no huge waste or theft (which sadly exists), you end up with wide, strong and stable continent-level middle class. Which is great goal, as we can see when observing Switzerland -- wide, strong and stable country-level middle class.

Last time Switzerland attempted something like this (~10y ago), it got burnt, hard (lost a lot of EU related projects and academic financing). Cutting the economical/market ties with the EU, considering its position and dependencies, is a suicide.

JumpCrisscross•11m ago
> It's not about free movement, but "free trade"/joint market

This is entirely about free movement and immigration.

ouk•52m ago
This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe. This is what the SVP has been trying to do for decades, and this initiative provides them with a convenient excuse. And it’s particularly ironic because the SVP has always opposed legislation promoting sustainability.
JumpCrisscross•40m ago
> This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe

Or their preëmptive re-negotiation.

I’m not sure describing it as a trap is fair. Nobody voting on is confused about what the thresholds require. I’m not thrilled at how close they both are. But the fundamental idea of a maximum sustainable population for an Alpine republic isn’t abhorrent to me.

idiotsecant•30m ago
is the idea of economic destruction akin to what the UK has suffered abhorrent to you? In your excitement about the one you might consider the other.
JumpCrisscross•20m ago
> the idea of economic destruction akin to what the UK has suffered abhorrent to you?

Yes. But I don’t think Brexit is comparable to what is being proposed here.

In Brexit, the UK invoked Article 50. In this case, the EU would have to execute its Guillotine clause. That dramatically changes the framework for and thus possibility of renegotiations.

soco•36m ago
I must wonder though who could profit from Switzerland leaving Schengen. Okay pass checks are only a little hassle, but visas can become bigger, and judicial cooperation on international crime just drops. And yes, no more cross-border workers either way.
jl6•52m ago
It would be saner to set a cap that is in some way tied to ecological footprint, food production, energy generation capacity, and other factors that make a country sustainable and sovereign. Trouble is, I expect that would put nearly every country way over.
herbst•38m ago
It is in fact based on stuff like this but hyperboled into a placative number. The "9.142 million initiative" would sell just as good.
_air•49m ago
Switzerland is ranked 67th in country population density. For reference, the United Kingdom is ranked 48th and the United States is ranked 183rd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

MattDamonSpace•47m ago
America is soooo big and soooo sparsely populated
Octoth0rpe•45m ago
I wonder if that number can be adjusted based on the amount of arable land, or based on the ease of construction (quite the nebulous term here admittedly). The number of mountains presumably makes this hard to compare.
deepspace•36m ago
That is an utterly meaningless statistic. Canada, with four times the population, ranks #233, because most of the country is uninhabited / uninhabitable.
soco•29m ago
> That is an utterly meaningless statistic

It's very meaningful, when the main argument is population overcrowding.

ceejayoz•23m ago
Read the rest of the post.
arjie•48m ago
This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy. I thought that even Brexit was a one-off event, but perhaps it is the other way around and European unity is a temporary thing that fragments easily. An interesting age, in the Austen Chamberlain sense.
seydor•31m ago
damn, the word 'execute' reverberated interestingly
JumpCrisscross•26m ago
> execute a Swexit

It wouldn’t be full Chexit. Just renegotiating and then rejecting the Schengen chapter. It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause.

ceejayoz•25m ago
Sure, and I didn't shoot you, I just sent a bullet in your direction.
tonfa•21m ago
Especially after we saw how happy the EU was to negotiate (they didn't budge) when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Swiss_immigration_initiat... passed.

The new initiative is basically the same, but with no leeway to ignore it.

(that said I suspect if it passes, there will be something tied to the bilateral referendum in 2027/28 to try to supersede it)

ChrisArchitect•46m ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47015345
andrewstuart•46m ago
But without population growth there will be no economic growth, the economy will stall it will be an unmitigated disaster.

Every country must grow as much as it possibly can and then keep growing much more than that.

JumpCrisscross•12m ago
> without population growth there will be no economic growth

This is not true. Productivity is the mediator between a constant population and economic growth. (The world economy has grown much faster than its population over the last 100 years. And the U.S. still out produces the more-populous India.)

notimetorelax•43m ago
As a voting member of the population all I can say is - good luck winning it… We have silly initiatives once in a while, that’s because you don’t need that much to start one.
FabCH•40m ago
Don’t be so quick.

You know full well that the polls are 52% no. It will be a razor thin rejection and the SVP will try again until they find one that passes.

herbst•31m ago
Don't look at tiktok then. It seems pretty much won in there.
alberto-m•41m ago
The strong point of the Swiss political system is that the government is, by (EDIT) convention, made up by all significant parties. No major political force can say “if only we were in power...” because they already are. Also, no party can create disasters and then disappear and leave the consequences to the following election winners to deal with.

This referendum is an attempt by the members of SVP/UDC, the right-most party, to show that on immigration topics they have more popular support than what their relative power in the government is. Their proposed solution is very crude, on the other hand the opposition parties' position is basically “do nothing, everything is going fine”. I would have hoped the government to offer some kind of compromise proposal (which they are allowed to do and appears as third option in many referendums), but it seems the Swiss citizens will be faced with a “all or nothing” choice.

As a novel immigrant, as much as I appreciate the political system of my new host country, I was quite disappointed by the referendum campaign from both sides. Most of the propaganda concerning this vote has emotional and apocalytic tones (“the immigrants will steal our welfare and overpopulation will transform Switzerland into Kowloon” vs “we will become a pariah state, our pensioners will die unassisted due to the lack of nurses, EU will tariff us to death”).

JumpCrisscross•37m ago
Yeah, the marketing for this referendum has been awful. But as a mixed-heritage Swiss-American (continental Indian), I’m also sympathetic to the argument that some geographies and political systems have a natural maximum population they can sustain. (Unsurprisingly, the SVP’s marketing may be the thing that tips me against this.)
tonfa•28m ago
> This referendum is an attempt by the members of SVP/UDC, the right-most party, to show that on immigration topics they have more popular support than what their relative power

Not really about immigration but EU relationship. Almost every SVP initiative tries to create a contradiction in the constitution with foreign agreements to force an "exit".

> The strong point of the Swiss political system is that the government is, by law, made up by all significant parties.

It's a tradition, not a rule (the composition of the council is simply the result of an election by the parliament).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_formula_(Swiss_politics)

cynicalsecurity•38m ago
Leaving the EU or ending free movement with EU countries leads to a significant increase in immigration from the third world, as Brexit showed.
JumpCrisscross•36m ago
It really doesn’t have to. Britain being incompetent is sort of its own chapter in governance.
idiotsecant•28m ago
no true scotsman
JumpCrisscross•19m ago
Not what that means.
Argonaut998•33m ago
The Swiss ruling class don’t have as much disdain for their populace. It will only end up that way if the Swiss people will it.

A lot of the UK’s problems were a result of the EU being vindictive as well. The EU won’t act vindictively because they aren’t in the EU.

cynicalsecurity•12m ago
Vindictive how? That it refuses to let the Brits have their cake and eat it?
Argonaut998•
derelicta•28m ago
I propose we set it at 4Mio instead, deport all the German speakers and give their properties to the French-speaking ones.
markstos•19m ago
No Population Growth in My Backyard -- NPGIMBY.
PowerElectronix•18m ago
First step towards a purge civilization. Also, rather narrowminded (to be expected, tho) to not expect your population to naturally grow beyond 10m (at 9.1 now) just based on the normal progress of healthcare and wellbeing.
dweinus•14m ago
I'm sure they are very proud of themselves for sneaking racist anti-immigrant policy in under the guide of left wing environmental rhetoric.
FabCH•13m ago
One interesting point for me is that, IMHO, the propaganda on the „no“ side wad _abysmal_.

The counter arguments are awful and they are presented awfully and not even in such high quantity as you would expect.

I think it has a good chance of passing just because of that.

And then political shitf***y will begin with „we don’t know how to turn this into law!“, which is not good for the basis of democracy…

kuboble•10m ago
Being in Switzerland it looks to me like this is a really tough referendum.

Both sides have very good arguments and from the side it looks like either way the Switzerland has to give up some asoects of its high quality of life.

If the initiative succeeds, Switzerland will get a large hit from the cancelation of a lot of bilateral agreements with the EU.

If the population exceeds 10M then the current rail and road infrastructure will not handle it well.

I have already been on a train which refused to move due overload. And it would only depart if enough people have disembarked. The autobahn are already having hours long traffic jams at peak hours and with extra million people it will multiply.

And it's almost impossible to significantly improve the throughput of rail and autobahn without extreme projects.

It looks like a lose / lose situation is a sense and a people are going to decide which hit to take.

contagiousflow•6m ago
Can you explain how adding frequency to the train network will not work to compensate higher ridership?
dguest•5m ago
This would seem a bit problematic for some organizations that put them on the world stage, e.g.

- The UN

- CERN

- The Red Cross

- The WHO

- The World Economic Forum

- ETH Zurich

There are probably a lot of others I'm missing.

Quite a lot of these rely on foreign residents, and not just because there's a shortage of domestic labor, but because the whole organizational principle relies on foreigners coming and working together. No matter how educated, the Swiss can't hold these up on their own.

I guess maybe there will be a lot of weird exceptions if this were to go though.

JumpCrisscross•35m ago
> All Swiss-EU contracts contain a „Guillotine clause“ where if one contract is broken, all are immediately gone. The initiative explicitly requires breaking the freedom of movement contract, which immediately severs all other links to the EU

Why does it need to be? Would freedom of permanent movement still be something Europeans would vote for today? Will the EU really hold hard on this line with Switzerland? (And does it make political sense to?)

FabCH•23m ago
Support for EU within EU is growing since the war in Ukraine and has gone to overdrive since Trump 2.0. No current political party except for fringe parties in any EU state advocates for exiting the EU or ending the four freedoms. It’s reasonable to say that yes, EU citizens do approve of freedom of movement in EU. They probably do want to limit freedom of non-EU citizens though…

… which is exactly why the EU would terminate agreements with Switzerland if we start first. And why it would make political sense. They made that quite clear with the UK.

JumpCrisscross•17m ago
> Support for EU within EU is growing since the war in Ukraine

I believe you. But hard numbers?

> No current political party except for fringe parties in any EU state advocates for exiting the EU or ending the four freedoms

Eh, there seems to be massive demand for modifying either freedom of movement or the context around it.

> They made that quite clear with the UK

The UK invoked Article 50. That wouldn’t happen here.

FabCH•5m ago
There is no demand for modifying freedom of movement within EU. It’s not even a topic in most EU countries.

What IS a topic, is preventing non-EU migration, and that has broad support and slowly all parties are moving in that direction.

And we are NOT EU. But for now, they basically go „yes yes, but we think of you as EU because we are so tightly connected“.

So what do you expect to happen if we push the point and make them treat us as non-EU?

amtamt•6m ago
Of course it is political agenda driven, but at least from surface it does not have _fear mongering_ vibe, comparing for example with Sweden which did not conclude citizenship applications and applied back dated refusal. Also politician openly attribting all immigrants as source of increasing crime and lowering education levels.

10m is larger than current resident counts, so people moving in can decide now if they want to move with uncertainty. It is not what everyone would like, but it is more understandable that recent Swedish changes, for example.

ceejayoz•52m ago
Imagine how crazy it is to think "Switzerland out of Schengen" isn't.

It's a small, landlocked country, surrounded on all sides by Schengen nations, that until recently delegated air defense to the EU outside of their air force's office hours. https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swis...

seanmcdirmid•51m ago
Plenty of us remember when Switzerland was not in the Schengen though. This might be good for Americans, who haven't been able to get working visas in Switzerland since EU countries now have priority. But otherwise, I don't see much changing beyond border procedures.
ceejayoz•50m ago
As with Brexit, leaving is likely to result in a much stricter regime than the status quo from before the establishment of the system.
seanmcdirmid•49m ago
True, maybe. It is really hard to say. I'm not pro leaving in any sense (beyond being an American who used to work in Switzerland and wouldn't have that chance today because of the Schengen).
luke5441•20m ago
Most of the downsides would be on the goods side. Swiss companies would loose market access and the chance of "better" trade agreements is even worse then the UK, especially currently.
greenavocado•50m ago
I already pass through Swiss customs when driving in, so it makes virtually no difference to me besides slowing things down at the border potentially.
ceejayoz•42m ago
Schengen covers border controls (i.e. immigration/visits), not customs ones (the stuff you bring with).
greenavocado•35m ago
When you drive through there is someone standing looking at the line of cars and if they don't like the way you look they point to the side and you have to explain yourself and your cargo. It's like an arbitrary border control right now.

Most of the time I'm waved through.

herbst•34m ago
To be fair there is the same thing between Austria and Germany for example. Except it's more strict there even.
ceejayoz•34m ago
Yes, I'm aware of the current state of things.

This is a proposal to change that state to something far stricter in this regard.

greenavocado•46m ago
When the neighboring countries become a threat again, they will place high explosives back inside the bridges and mountain passes.
herbst•35m ago
Not sure if they actually removed it in all the places, except that one bridge by Basel everyone know about.
skywhopper•13m ago
At the very least it’s an infringement of human rights.
seanmcdirmid•51m ago
This is only about the Schengen, Switzerland is not a part of the EU, and even before the Schengen, the borders between the EU and Switzerland weren't heavily controlled. I got in trouble at German airport for going by train from Lausanne to Milan, and then plane to Berlin, I had no entry step into the Schengen because they didn't bother doing that on trains (pre-Schengen).

Everything else is negotiated under separate treaties. This would revert Switzerland to pre-Schengen, which is sad, but it wouldn't be suicidal.

tonfa•47m ago
> This is only about the Schengen, Switzerland is not a part of the EU

Not really, the bilateral are a package and the EU doesn't want CH to pick and chose.

If freedom of movement stops, a whole lot of thing also stop. It happened the last time SVP got something similar voted on (introduction of quota for foreign immigration), on a smaller scale (erasmus and horizon which are the higher ed and academic research collaboration, CH was a heavy recipient of the latter).

JumpCrisscross•45m ago
> the bilateral are a package and the EU doesn't want CH to pick and chose

It really depends who is in power where when and if the 10mm limit is crossed. If there is a conservative in Paris or Berlin, chances are Switzerland can simply abrogate Schengen.

tonfa•34m ago
Unlike UK, the impact to the EU is minimum and Switzerland doesn't have leverage (if the EU still stands).

Of course if you have EU dismantlers in power anyway in FR/DE, they'll just be happy to sabotage.

JumpCrisscross•30m ago
> unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant

I think we do bilaterally with our trading partners/border friends.

Freedom of movement across the EU has created a massive backlash. Politicians can keep ignoring that. Or they can modify Schengen, perhaps by admitting that FOM makes immigration decisions a collective one. (Germany letting in a massive wave of immigration means a massive wave of immigrants for everyone.)

jltsiren•8m ago
Schengen is a minor treaty about border controls. The actual issue are the Bilateral I agreements, which link free movement with many aspects of free trade. If Switzerland drops that, it needs new free trade agreements, which take many years to negotiate and ratify.
Yizahi•8m ago
I wish Schengen would one day apply mirror visit policies, to make countries taste their own poison. Like - "Ok UK, you want out of Schengen? Fine. You will now pay 162 EUR for a single one time entry per person. Thank you very much for your interest.". Or "Oh, you want a 5 year multi entry visa, which EU can grant for like 30-60 EUR? It will be reciprocal 1086 EUR for you. It was a pleasure of doing business with you, sir.".

And do the same with every other renegade, including reciprocal mirror tariffs and stuff. Want to play games? Let's play them together.

transcriptase•51m ago
Makes far more sense than the “population must increase forever” pyramid scheme the rest of the West is running. Check out Canada for a look at what happens when you try to juice GDP via population growth at the expense of literally everything else.
ryandrake•43m ago
What happens, specifically? Not that I'm a fan of "population increase forever" but what's wrong with Canada?
alephnerd•22m ago
A lot of people on the internet blame Canada's malaise on their historically lax immigration stance.

While to a certain extent it is true (eg. Indian, Chinese, Viet organized crime took advantage of it to leave crackdowns during the 2010s and 2020s and degree mills abounded), it's also overstated.

Canada's economy was always a resource and construction driven economy, and the blocking of the Keystone Pipeline project (thus making Canadian ONG less competitive than American sourced ONG), the rise of America as a net ONG producer (thanks Obama/Biden and Perry), the blocking of the GasLink LNG project (blocked the ability for Canada to build marketshare in Asia), and China's CCDI starting to crackdown on foreign assets of Chinese nationals as well as the Zero COVID era economic malaise (negatively impacted Chinese FDI) all IMO played a much larger role than immigration.

At the end of the day, Canada in the 2010s was unprepared for America becoming a major energy exporter by the 2020s.

gambiting•22m ago
Population of most European countries is actually decreasing year on year:

https://www.worldometers.info/population/countries-in-europe...

But either way, European nations are nearly all screwed - their expenditure on pensions and healthcare will quadruple in the coming decades as the demographics change heavily towards elderly peple.

bombcar•19m ago
Pensions are a bit harder to get out of, but healthcare is easy. You never deny, just delay.
Stevvo•19m ago
The data/facts disagree with you. In a low birth rate society a constant influx of new tax payers is required. Without it you end up with decades of stagnation like Japan.
metalman•6m ago
Here in Nova Scotia, Canada, mass imigration is driving the most intense building of everything boom, ever. And it just went up a notch. Plenty of Swiss imigrants as well.
dnautics•49m ago
how did they ever survive in the pre-EU/schengen/EEC era?
ceejayoz•41m ago
Divorce is harder than a wedding.
skywhopper•14m ago
Their neighbors were similarly restrictive back then, and the European economy was not as integrated.
fractallyte•54m ago
It's being proposed in order to maintain quality of life. No one wants to be overcrowded. This is a sane solution: collectively agree on the maximum tolerable population. Then it's down to individual responsibility to obey the norms of one's society.

Edit: unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant. Swiss voters have a right to decide how they want to live. They're not beholden to EU laws; they can make their own sovereign decisions, and everyone must respect that.

shevy-java•51m ago
Except that it is not EU conform. And won't hold up anyway. Everyone knows this.

Some politicians want to market themselves here.

> Then it's down to individual responsibility to observe the norms of one's society.

That's ok, but Switzerland decided to also partake in many EU regulations, including free movement. They can't cherry-pick individual parts. If they don't want special relations to the EU then that's also fine but the benefits will be gone as well. The UK found this out quite quickly too.

SllX•50m ago
There’s never anything sane with population caps by fiat. If that’s a form of insanity they wish to indulge though, then democracy allows them that.
JumpCrisscross•41m ago
> There’s never anything sane with population caps by fiat

Why? It’s repressive if done to cap a natively-growing population, since that means government controlling reproduction (à la one-child policy). But government has controlled immigration for generations.

I’m asking as someone who is genuinely on the fence on this vote.

jalapenoj•14m ago
The entire world can’t demand to live near Europeans peoples.
jrflowers•46m ago
If you increased Switzerland’s population density by 50% they’d be in a crowded hellhole like (checks notes) Belgium
ceejayoz•34m ago
There are significant differences in terrain that make that comparison a bit tougher.
plqbfbv•32m ago
Yeah, but while Belgium is basically a huge plain, Switzerland is 60% Alps.

If you account for that, the effective density of Switzerland on the usable area is 600–700 people/km².

rayiner•24m ago
But Belgium does suck. I drove from Amsterdam to Paris in the early 2000s, and Belgium stuck out as being obviously worse (dirtier) than the other two.
soco•45m ago
I think I'm totally missing the explanation how my quality of life will increase when Swiss products cannot be sold in the EU anymore because of the price hikes and double bureaucracy - including no more cross-border work. Job loss doesn't say much "quality of life", nor does higher prices on imports.
herbst•32m ago
What products are you thinking? Chocolate and cheese are actually not that relevant as some people want it to be. Gold trade, software, banking however is unlikely to decrease a lot no matter the border rules.
Argonaut998•28m ago
You are assuming there won’t be free trade agreements. People need to stop saying what happened with Brexit will happen with Switzerland. Two completely different countries governed in two completely different ways.
FabCH•37m ago
Well I _am_ Swiss.

You missed the part where we _voluntarily_ chose to enter into a contract with the EU that does in fact beholden us to EU laws.

We can go back on that contract, but breaking your word is something that people remember for a reason.

criddell•9m ago
Does the contract contain a section on breaking the agreement?
JumpCrisscross•32m ago
> unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant

I vote in Switzerland. I’m very much interested in the thoughts and opinions of others on this vote.

skywhopper•10m ago
It’s ludicrous to think that 10 million is the “maximum tolerable population” for Switzerland. This is a racist, isolationist move and an attempt to stir up hatred among the population.
shevy-java•53m ago
The people behind this are conservative politicians. They have done so a lot in the last 20 years or so and keep on trying, but the EU regularly stops their shenanigans.

For the most part the swiss already decided to try to cherry pick as much as possible. They know that if they want to limit movement, then the EU will also limit movement from swiss to other EU countries. And the swiss always disliked that, so they could not go through with it. You can also see that with the UK - they are out of the EU but suddenly want free movement and free trade. Some people can't decide what they want.

jon_adler•45m ago
With a birth rate or 1.29, they will need to accept immigrants or face the consequences of a declining population. My guess is that in the end, the next generation of old folk will want taking care of.
JumpCrisscross•43m ago
> With a birth rate or 1.29, they will need to accept immigrants or face the consequences of a declining population

Doesn’t the population cap somewhat elegantly deal with this? If birth rates are insufficient, a certain amount of migration is tolerated. The lower births rates go, the more immigration is allowed.

harshalizee•29m ago
It doesn't work as straightforward as that. To have a healthy immigration channel, especially if you want younger/educated/skilled/etc. the pipeline needs to be active and streamlined. Jobs, housing, a well-beaten path that is predictably navigable is incredibly important for a migrant, since they're taking a lot of risks moving there.

If this referendum blocks EU movement, it will choke the pipeline that's filling positions that takes in a high amount of immigrants like healthcare, agriculture, etc. Once it dies out, people may not be as willing to move if they're the one paving the path.

Historically, the US has been quite successful in this area. Migrants from Philippines dominate nursing, Mexico for agriculture and Chinese/Indians for Sotware/Medical.

The migration path has to be vastly superior to their current living for this to work, if they want the same immigration. Or else, it will be mostly people who are truly in a terrible situation who'd be willing to take a chance.

JumpCrisscross•23m ago
Counterpoint: Switzerland is rich, peaceful and pretty multicultural. That baseline will keep it as an attractive place to expat or migrate.
Der_Einzige•15m ago
Robots will take off in our life time. I will be taken care of by robots circa the 2060s and 2070s.
plqbfbv•31m ago
Moved out last year after 10y in the Zurich area.

There's always been a pull-and-push between getting skilled workers and protecting the internal labor market. Right-wing political parties never made a secret of the fact that they hated immigrants, because they stole jobs and redirected/exported money that would have otherwise been received by Swiss. IIRC this was historically mostly felt in Ticino (the southern region), where Swiss companies sourced very cheap Italian labor by undercutting Swiss salaries by a lot, shrinking the job market for Swiss people (a Swiss can barely get by in Switzerland with an equivalent Italian salary).

Switzerland is geographically in the middle of Europe, but it's not part of the EU. This allowed the country to thrive outside some of the more restrictive EU regulations and keep its own currency, but because it has a smaller job market that can barely replenish the high-skilled workers pool and is often in defect (not just finance bros, but also doctors, for instance), it always had to import workforce from neighboring countries to some extent. Over the last 40 years Switzerland basically opened up to more-or-less follow many EU rules and put in place agreements to have a play in the same market and be allowed to easily keep importing people it needs.

This initiative as I understand it would be equivalent to a Brexit (because sooner or later the cap would be hit, considering more housing keeps being built), which would undo 40 years of openings and IMO greatly weaken the integration with EU, and as a result the country as a whole.

thrance•18m ago
Cruelty to immigrants, mostly. That's literally the only project the right is able to sell the population on anymore. Why a round 10M cap? Because this is just garbage slopulism, and 10M makes for a great slogan.

Will you find any serious economist defending this? Any sociologist? Of course not.

joe_mamba•6m ago
>I must wonder though who could profit from Switzerland leaving Schengen.

Same types of people who profited from Brexit.

chinathrow•14m ago
Meanwhile SVP head politicians employ quite a few foreign workers at all levels of employment hierarchy.

It's pathetic.

Argonaut998•21m ago
The entire human population can fit within Los Angelas. It’s not a good metric in general. Pressure on public services, resources and housing is far more useful
JumpCrisscross•16m ago
> if it passes, there will be something tied to the bilateral referendum in 2027/28 to try to supersede it

This is my thinking, too. If it really comes down to Chexit-or-nothing, we’ll have another referendum.

ceejayoz•9m ago
That was the UK's thinking, too. "We won't have a hard Brexit! Of course they'll negotiate a plan!"
ericmay•16m ago
> It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause.

These kinds of morally-superior, we'll show them, type of attitudes and suggestions are precisely why so many folks have come to be anti-EU. Nevermind the actual other real day-to-day issues with the organization.

I'm sure you're also staunchly against Scotland and any referendum to join the EU, and against Catalonia becoming independent as well? Why should Taiwan be an exception and not part of China? Seems many of the EU are of the opinion that "We support sovereignty when it conveniently aligns with my chosen organization".

The default and perhaps what is best for democracy is to have many smaller nation states, city states, and the other various confederations and the like. The super-organization of nations into these unwieldy states is in many respects anti-democratic and perhaps only temporary as these large nations and alliances were built precisely to fight other, large nation states.

JumpCrisscross•15m ago
> sure you're also staunchly against Scotland and any referendum to join the EU, and against Catalonia becoming independent as well?

Why? I think the first is a good idea and the second fine if that’s what they want.

mc32•25m ago
It veers too close to Logan’s Run when they cap things like that. I’m sure it’s just policy action at the various thresholds but it sure sounds odd.
foobarian•24m ago
Elderly people in our village in east Europe used to be super suspicious of the EU project and would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns." Hopefully they were wrong :-)
rayiner•19m ago
Calling it a population cap for something that seems to be about stricter border controls is a wild marketing choice.
philipallstar•13m ago
> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy

European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

alberto-m•27m ago
> It's a tradition, not a rule

Amended, thanks!

6m ago
Vindictive in preventing trade agreements. Vindictive like France doing nothing to stop the immigrants going through the channel

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