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I Think I Have LLM Burnout

https://www.alecscollon.com/blog/llm-burnout/
76•sosodev•57m ago

Comments

hoppp•48m ago
Tell the llm to answer like a cavemen, if llm talk like cavemen, the answers become shorter and more compressed.

https://github.com/JuliusBrussee/caveman

It's for getting it to output shorter answers, but also could help with your burnout.

ysavir•39m ago
I surprisingly had good results when I told the LLM to only communicate in ASCII memes. It did a fantastic job of summarizing the situation using relevant memes, and the humor was enough to keep things fresh. As silly as it sounds, it's worth trying when you're in that LLM burnout corner.
Bratmon•45m ago
This is legitimately the reason I'm looking to leave programming.

I got into programming because the problems of programming were interesting to me. But if the problems go from "figure out why this calculator is off by one in France" to "Get this LLM to stop spamming cutsey emojis", then maybe it's time for a career change.

Bratmon•34m ago
(And I admit I'm salty that the "I don't give a shit about why the calculator doesn't work in France, I'm just here because they pay me to fix it" people were the ones vindicated by technological progress)
teaearlgraycold•31m ago
The people just here for the paychecks have always been the problem.
slopinthebag•25m ago
In every industry, and we wonder why everything is being enshittified.

I'm not looking forward to using computers or technology over the next decade. There is a non-zero chance myself or a loved one is killed because of vibe coding.

fragmede•16m ago
There's also a non zero chance that someone in your life is going to have fun and whimsy and their life improved by vibe coding. Why be so pessimistic?
QwenGlazer9000•6m ago
Are you fr?
mc3301•21m ago
Hmm... I think the majority of people working jobs are mostly just there "for the paychecks."

It'd be rather beautiful if all jobs were purely passion driven, but that is simply not the case. Nor could it be. And yeah, there are programmers with jobs that are mostly driven by passion, but most would pack it up and go home immediately if there was a sudden "we have stopped paying you" announcement.

nzeid•45m ago
I do not have the burnout but I certainly operate similarly to the author. I continue to be unable to establish a workflow where allowing the LLM to generate code that I review is faster than writing the code myself. Literally the only two ways out of this dilemma is to blindly trust what was generated or to generate an uncharacteristically exhaustive suite of unit tests to validate every possible scenario. I just write the business logic myself and have the LLM do a lot of the rest. Boilerplate falls into the latter as well.
jaggederest•39m ago
> generate an uncharacteristically exhaustive suite of unit tests to validate every possible scenario.

This is what you want. You want comprehensive tests at every level, far more than is reasonable for a human to build or maintain, from unit, functional, to full end to end and beyond. Adversarial testing (both TDD-style "write tests to demonstrate this bug", and posthoc "prove this patch wrong with a new test") is the best way to keep AI on track and make those diffs you have to read clean and easy.

An even better way is to use a more strongly typed language and really lock it down, but you can use testing in any language. I feel like my background in TDD and "TATFT" has been secret sauce when working with AI

dprkh•34m ago
I used an LLM to build this

https://github.com/dprkh/eventfs

It has good test coverage, mostly unit tests but also a number of end-to-end tests. I also made the LLM build a benchmark, which you can find at the bottom of the readme. It is obviously slow, but I thought that it is good enough to work. When I tried to write a 1 GiB file, I found that it broke down, and after writing half the file, the speed went to under one megabyte per second. Implementation is 10k+ LoC, and I have no idea what is going on there.

nzeid
hyperhello•40m ago
I don’t understand what could possibly need to be made so fast that isn’t totally made up billable hours. Running at top speed long enough to be burned out is either ineffective, or valuable enough that someone else can take over while you sleep.
razster•4m ago
Even with Fabel and all that I constantly keep having to babysit it and correct it like it’s an adolescent and it gets really old and the amount of code. It produces not all of its great at all. I’m burnt out looking at. It’s poor coating that somehow magically works.
Terr_•39m ago
It sounds kind of like being stuck working with coworkers who--while not overtly hostile--need constant hand-holding and repeat the same kinds of mistakes every day and can't even be genuinely sorry about it.

Just because we work with computers doesn't mean we don't take, er, social-damage. Or perhaps parasocial damage, in this case.

dirtbag__dad•39m ago
> My main project right now is to establish a framework for large-scale, unsupervised code generation in our codebase

Anyone else working on something like this or know of any projects attempting it?

jaggederest•32m ago
https://github.com/gastownhall/gascity is certainly a choice. I enjoyed playing with gas town but it was a little too nondeterministic for production code, I think.

Directionally if what you're doing is straightforward it's an amazing experience to be able to slap in an epic planning document and wake up the next day to it being "done", with a big asterisk that done-ness is directly proportional to how good of a spec and how good of a model you were using.

That being said, these days if you use Fable, slap in an epic planning document, and ask it to run a workflow (be sure to specify that subagents should use, say, Sonnet, or wave goodbye to your wallet), it's almost as good as gastown/gascity but far more predictable.

Exoristos•31m ago
An almost infinite supply of such modern-day alchemists.
jaggederest•37m ago
I think having style guidance in your context is valuable for avoiding this kind of thing. Having to read awful, cliched text all day is even worse than having to read reams of useless code. I have some simple humanizing content in there that specifically calls out the rhetorical devices that AI loves, and it drastically improves the diffs and comments. It also makes the coding performance generally slightly worse, but ergonomics uber alles.
internet2000•35m ago
Avoid Gemini and the lesser ChatGPT models and your emoji problem goes away.
dpc_01234•35m ago
I don't think I have a "burnout", but LLMs are really exhausting due to amount of pressure they generate. No one is really pushing me to increase my workload, but at every moment there is always something ready, done by my clankers or clankers of other people that I could be unblocking. In the past (before LLMs) it was already hard to keep up, but now it feels like there's 10x more things waiting at any given time, and there could be 10x more if everyone just "optimized" and streamlined processes fed the AI even more tasks in parallel faster. It just being a bottleneck of everything, all the time is tiring...

I am happy about all the little side-projects, and ideas it help my realize, and I enjoy exploring this new world, but I've noticed LLMs feed my unhealthy "don't want to take a break and waste time being idle" mindset, and I need to correct it.

W.r.t. article's main complain - I think the similar thing happened due to factory manufacturing automation. What used to be a varied skillful craft in a shop became standing in a single place of an assembly line doing the exact same thing whole day. LLM took away the more creative and variable part of the work, and left the repetitive QA rubber-stamping. Probably some of the mitigations used back then could be rediscovered today.

walrus01•19m ago
> No one is really pushing me to increase my workload, but at every moment there is always something ready, done by wankers

I confess that the above variant on the quotation is how I originally read it. And that's just about how I feel now with trying to sort through vibe-coded slop projects that are put forth by (well-meaning, probably good intentioned, not evil) people who represent them as if they're the handcrafted result of one dedicated developer.

wisty•15m ago
Individual gains from llm seem much larger than net productivity increases. I think a major source of this discrepency is people creating more work for their coworkers at the speed of slop. Especially the people with no idea.

"I did a Chat output, please fix and review it " is the kind of thing that empowers the people who used to have a minimal productivity, and now lets them to wreck things on an industrial scale.

readme•32m ago
I don't have much success with using the LLM to make changes to a big legacy codebase. Instead, I use the LLM to gripe about things I don't like in the code. Usually, it is a brilliant commiserator.
block_dagger•28m ago
I've started feeling slightly physically ill when I read Opus output for hours straight. This article rings very true for me. I've started complaining about it with my team; at least have a personal style guide in your agent rules that eliminates emdashes, the "it's not X, it's Y"s, the long lists of modifiers before the noun, using the word "land" to mean finish, etc. I hope this is just a phase of adolescent LLMs.
wxre•23m ago
I don't mind interacting with LLMs myself and find they increase my productivity a decent amount. I just can't stand dealing with other people's slop.

Getting sent IM responses that are copy pasted LLM nonsense. Getting a massive PR to review that was generated overnight and the author didn't read it first.

deeprack4sure•23m ago
Learn to code
kyzcdev•22m ago
What to do to achieve this kind of burn out, I feel like I am a stubborn old developer, I'm coding since 2013 and I am 25 years old.

My mind still can't function well without having knowledge about everything.

anonu•15m ago
It's burnt me out too. I'm generating 10x more features and multitasking across 4 disparate projects. My greatest concern is I don't really have a strong connection to the underlying fundamentals anymore. I need to see how the things works to internalize it. Now I just trust that the agent wrote this piece correctly.

The productivity drive and the sheer feature set you can generate in record time makes it easy to forget proper sdlc hygiene.

slopinthebag•13m ago
I don't really understand how this isn't a self-inflicted problem? Perhaps it's because I'm not really mandated to use LLMs in a particular way, but I've had great success doing a combination of writing code myself and using smaller but faster models as a sort of "flood fill". The larger models can also be useful when you're implementing something which already exists in similar form in the codebase, because you can just put that code in the context and you'll get something very similar outputted. So the more code you write, the better the LLM can be later on. Codebases should get easier to add to the bigger they get, not harder.

Of course if you're supposed to achieve so much output that it's not possible to do anything but vibe it, fair enough.

sodapopcan•16m ago
> Hmm... I think the majority of people working jobs are mostly just there "for the paychecks."

And the majority of software is terrible so ya. Life is generally unfortunate.

bobthebob•5m ago
So - most of human society?
irjustin•15m ago
Giving my "otherside", because the pressure to output more at work is real, but at the same time, out side of work, I love this. I'm able to do way more projects than ever before because a barrier to entry was always the amount of research+time required to start up a pet project.

My latest is, I'm really into fizzy/soda water and wanted my own continuous carbonator. My entire build from water source to tap with an ESP32 controlled pump, pressure, water level, cooling fans.

There were so many areas I made mistakes in my shopping cart and it found it - like Home Brewer likes 8mm lines but water filter systems like 9.5mm. Really optimized the versions from a simple on/off pump w/ float switch to effectively a full on PLC system. So many iterations gained by chatting with "someone more experienced". Once I get the parts I can build and have the software side running in less than an hour.

It doesn't make money, but man I really enjoy it.

altairprime•13m ago
[delayed]
•
32m ago
Yep.
jaggederest•24m ago
That's interesting because I would feed that benchmark back into the agent and loop over it, to see how much faster you could get it, and agents are really good at that kind of recursive optimization. And I would definitely add at least a simulated 1GiB write test, probably a real one honestly, if I was building something like that.

At least with agent-run tests I care about loop speed a lot, but I care about complete coverage more, so having the odd heavy weight full stack integration test is fine, I think.

dprkh•9m ago
You're right. This was just a performance issue, but what if next time it is a corruption bug or a security vulnerability or really anything that can cause real consequences if happened in production? I don't think that LLM systems are inherently bound to have this flaw, but I think that we are pretty far from harnesses and algorithms becoming advanced enough so that the LLM system can kind of continuously evaluate its output and ensure it is good in all aspects.
rafterydj•31m ago
I see this get mentioned a lot but I still am skeptical that AI can generate tests we can trust more than any other code we know we cannot trust.

Yes tests are conceptually isolated and that helps, but I've personally seen unit tests get generated that are semantically incorrect - that is, they test the structure of the code (e.g. they can check function output types and values), but they can't know _why_ the unit tests need to be there, so the really really helpful tests never get generated. Not to mention the obvious issues with generated tests only testing is x = x, or needless redundant tests for the same thing, or them essentially testing basic features of the language.

jaggederest•27m ago
You have to iterate on the tests, review and validate them, just like any other code, and if you generate a whole project's tests all at once the quality is abysmal, of course. I've been using a lot of old school data-driven testing techniques, where the harness is just code I review, and the data itself is e.g. json files and drives the system.

I actually have a public (AGPL) example here: https://github.com/pgdogdev/pgdog/tree/main/integration/sql - pgdog is particularly testable since it is trying for complete transparency, so you have a perfect oracle in hand via base postgresql, but it demonstrates the concept at least.

nzeid•22m ago
Which is why test generation has to be carefully guided as well, and this is something at which I've incidentally been fast. Ultimately it's a constant battle between LLM handholding and doing things yourself.
skydhash•12m ago
I don't even care about tests being correct as you can still verify them even when tedious. What I care is that, more often than not, the shape of the solution is not fixed. Having unit tests for those can be extremely costly as when the changes happens, you have to change all the tests.

I've been burned by this in my honeymoon period with unit testing (pretty much the reason it ended). These days, I prefer broader scope of testing, especially user-facing part. The users may be other developers or end users. I only do unit testing for tricky algorithms or math formulae.

rapind•25m ago
100% this is what I've done. I sucked it up and adapted myself to the tool (agents) by having as many implicit guardrails (static typing, functional, no nulls, great linting) and then layering on explicit guardrails (TDD) on top. I also want my workflow to be portable because I don't really trust the frontier model providers.

It is different though. Basically a lot of what I do has changed over the last 2 years. I totally get that a lot of people won't want to adapt though.

skydhash•8m ago
> I totally get that a lot of people won't want to adapt though.

Or people don't want to be reverse centaur keeping the clankers happily running. Instead of helping to solve users/consumers problem.

stillpointlab•37m ago
I've just been carefully reading the code. It is easy to slip into just accepting what comes out to speed things up, but reading the code is important.

I save myself by skimming things like tests, templates, some UI. Anything cosmetic. But I have to read the majority of code that ends up on my back end systems.

dylan604•32m ago
And for those that have similar-ish sentiments, what mental defect is had that prevents them from just drinking that sweet tasty kool-aid and just use the slop created. What demented trait is in them that causes everyone to just be a stick in the mud trying to ruin everyone else's good time?

In my personal experience, the ones most enthusiastic about LLM magic are those that can't code, but can now walk away with something functional if not quite the best code. Now that they can produce workable code, it will make everyone better. Yet, they have no idea how maintainable the slop is or if it's slop at all.

dools•32m ago
Don’t read the code!!
jaggederest•22m ago
I actually dispute this, I read all the code, the core thing people have to give up is not "reading the code" per se, it's giving up on "that's not how I would have done it".

When you see a perfectly clear function or object that just isn't your style, you have to accept it and move on. Where there are concrete concerns, or it's unreadable, demand excellence, but treat it like a coworker, not an IDE.

FunHearing3443•4m ago
Yeah this is how I feel about it. Does it look correct? is it doing something weird? Is it forgetting about some gotcha in our domain that it hasn't been taught about yet? Otherwise, ship it.