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Open in hackernews

New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwydz60j3eno
19•tosh•1h ago

Comments

precommunicator•50m ago
my experience with border control in Gibraltar (foreign car, 2023):

entering: Spanish side: passport scan, UK side: 5 second look

exiting: waving through

amunozo•37m ago
That can be a problem for the thousands of people that commute daily.
alex000kim•25m ago
same experience last year, existing without having to stop was especially surprising
unkeen•46m ago
From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.
kdheiwns•40m ago
Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Forcing those people out or seizing the land from them would be the definition of colonialism, yes. And exclaves exist all around the world. Geography has never really meant anything in national terms. Spain has a piece of land on Africa and I don't think they plan on giving that up.
unkeen•33m ago
I was not talking about any of the points you mention, I was refering to the geographical facts alone. Wouldn't you agree that in general it is kind of silly to claim ownership of a piece of land that is far, far away from your own country?
kdheiwns•28m ago
I was born in a country that has islands and I live in a different country that consists exclusively of islands. The islands spread out thousands of miles in various directions. Land being far apart is just a reality of how countries work.

The distance from London to Gibraltar is closer than the distance from London to Bermuda, but nobody finds that weird. France has French Polynesia on the opposite side of the world. Russia has Kaliningrad. Norway has Svalbard. South Africa has another country, Lesotho, right in the middle of it. India wraps around Bangladesh like a tentacle. Azerbaijan has a random piece of land and makes a sandwich out of Armenia. Spain has islands directly west of Morocco. France has land on South America.

The whole world has freaky borders. The only clean borders are places like Wyoming and Colorado.

rmunn•24m ago
I would add natural navigation barriers such as rivers and lakes (and some, but not all, mountain ranges) to the list of "clean" borders. They're not straight lines, but they're a natural place to site a border.
Laurel1234•45m ago
It'd be even easier if Gibraltar is returned to Spain to whom it belongs.
ChocolateGod•43m ago
Russia says the same thing about Ukraine.
obayesshelton•43m ago
In that context America should be given back, Alaska should be given back, Australia should be given back... the list goes on.
unkeen•20m ago
Well, in theory, they should! :) Imagine a world where expansionist acts of violent injustice could be undone.
pmnelson•42m ago
What about Ceuta and Melilla?
krzyk•41m ago
Well, those are even funnier than Giblartar.
pelagicAustral•41m ago
Bad precedent for the Falkland Islands... Chagos and then Gibraltar, would force the Falklands issue to be addressed more seriously, and that would be extremely unfair, since the argentine moot argument it's a mere chauvinist temper tantrum, fueled by generation after generation of propaganda conditioning by failed governments.
piokoch•43m ago
Interesting, especially in view of several millions of illegal emigrants that were "legalized" recently by the Spanish government.
Anduia•18m ago
It wasn't millions, it was half a million. And what they're getting is permission to work in Spain, so it's unrelated to the article.
phoronixrly•43m ago
> After years of negotiation involving Spain, the EU and the UK, the solution has been to align Gibraltar with the European customs union and the Schengen European free travel zone.

> Travellers arriving from countries outside Schengen, such as the UK, will have to show their passports to Gibraltarian and Spanish officials at the territory's airport and port.

So an L for the UK as Gibraltar has again freedom of movement to the EU (that edit: half the British hated so much), and lack thereof to the UK...

iainmerrick•36m ago
It's really ridiculous how little discussion there was about places like Gibraltar and Northern Ireland before the Brexit vote.

Looks like NI voted ~55% remain and Gibraltar ~95% remain, but too bad, England voted ~53% leave, so screw all you little overseas territories with actual land borders who are most directly impacted.

iso1631•21m ago
And places like London, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol, York, Warwick voted 60% to remain but still got taken out. Places like Oxford and Cambridge were over 70% remain.

What should have happened was the ability for any person to retain their European citizenship, or if under 18 choose on their 18th birthday. Then the remainers would not have had their rights stripped away.

The catch being if more than 50% of adults took this up, then the UK would not leave.

nephihaha•13m ago
Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Wales was more mixed.

Northern Ireland got the best deal of the three. Thanks to the Good Friday Agreement, people there can get Irish (and therefore EU) passports.

This is a perennial issue in Scottish politics, but Scotland, unlike Northern Ireland, and maybe Kent, does not have a land border with the EU.

My personal hope was that the UK would remain in the EU, but both the EU and UK would take a look at themselves. Instead both are heading more and more towards censorship and heavy control of their citizens.

rmunn•26m ago
There are many, MANY islands scattered around Earth's oceans. Not all of them have the resources to be self-sufficient, so any inhabitants have to import goods from somewhere. There are two options: either each island is its own country, or some islands belong to some other country. Given how easy it is to navigate to most islands (some of them are in harder-to-navigate straits), it doesn't make much practical difference whether the owning country is close or far away.

So no, as a general rule I can't agree. I can certainly agree that there are some rather silly cases, but it's just not practical for all islands to be self-governing, so I can't agree with the general rule you propose.

Pragmata•32m ago
>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens.

Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?

kdheiwns•25m ago
My definition of colonialism generally involves people being subjugated and being treated as less and involuntarily part of an empire. People in Gibraltar are British citizens with full rights by definition.

Land borders that one doesn't like doesn't equate to colonialism. It's just a land border that you don't like. The people of Gibraltar voted almost 100% to be British on more than one occasion. Trying to make them not British is the definition of colonialism

inglor_cz•24m ago
"Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk.

After 10 generations, the people are every bit as local as the previous population was. 300 years is such an abyss of time that most of us would fail to name a single of our ancestors by name.

Kladsko was a Czech city from approx. 1000 to 1742. The old town still looks a bit like very small Prague [0]. Was lost in a war (to the Prussians no less), it is gone, not our anymore. Tough luck. Others live there now, it is theirs.

[0] https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladsko_(město)#/media/Soubor:...

maccard•20m ago
Each of these countries, enclaves, territories, settlements, borders have massive amounts of history that shape why they are the way they are, and attempting to say "this rule should apply equally to all of them" shows a huge misunderstanding of why they are unique.
manarth•39m ago
Whilst I don't disagree, Spain has similar questions to answer about Ceuta and Melilla.
unkeen•36m ago
I didn't debate that.
hermitcrab•34m ago
"Ah, but that's different!" I was told when I asked some Spanish people about the apparent hypocrisy of Spanish enclaves.
darkwater•33m ago
And, to a lesser extent, Canary Islands.
amunozo•38m ago
(I am Spanish, so I might be biased)

I think the twp main problems are not who Gibraltar belongs to, but 1. Gibraltar is that it is kind of a tax haven next to one of th areas of Spain with more poverty and unemployment, which is also one of the main drug entrances of the country. This combibation is explosive and really problematic for the people in the Campo de Gibraltar, especially the youth. 2. The people of Gibraltar must also be sovereign and don't want to belong to Spain, so I think we should respect that.

I think this kind of agreement make a compromise, integrating better Gibraltar with the area, making it possible for the people around to benefit from the Gibraltar's economy, bridging Gibraltar and Spain closer, while respecting the sovereignity of the people of Gibraltar.

However, I must say, a similar agreement could be done with Gibraltat belonging to Spain, which I would consider fairer, but still not the most important point.

iso1631•32m ago
I assume you're also in favour of Ceuta and Melilla being given to Morocco over the wishes of the people whos ancestors have lived there for centuries?
martin8412•28m ago
The difference of course being that Gibraltar used to be Spanish, while Ceuta and Melilla never have been parts of Morocco. Portugal has more claim to those two enclaves than Morocco ever did.
amunozo•25m ago
Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain since the fifteenth century, same as Granada and way older than the Moroccan state.

I am telling that Gibraltar people should decide which country they want to belong to, same thing with Ceuta and Melilla.

yoavm•22m ago
From my quick search, it doesn't at all seem like the majority of the people living in Ceuta and Melilla wish to be part of Morocco.
madeofpalk•21m ago
I mean they said pretty clearly that they should respect the wishes of sovereignty for Gibraltar, so presumably they would also extend the same to Ceuta and Melilla.

I think in a very abstract sense I agree that exclaves like this are weird and it would be cleaner if they didn't happen (Gibraltar returned to Spain, Ceuta and Melilla returned to Morocco), but that's thinking of this as a systems design problem rather than one that cares about people. I recognise that this is not an empathetic view, and my own opinion is worthless and I hold onto it very weakly.

pjc50•38m ago
We should just overturn the Treaty of Utrecht, that will go well. Why not return the Netherlands to Spain while we're at it?
ChocolateGod•37m ago
Spain ceded Gibraltar under the Treaty of Utrecht.
thih9•36m ago
There are many more places like this, e.g. Point Roberts[1].

> Questions about ceding the territory to the United Kingdom and later to Canada have been raised since its creation; however, its status has remained unchanged.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington

iso1631•35m ago
It belongs to the people who live there. While you may think places like Point Roberts should be forcibly moved to Canada, or Ceuta should be forcibly moved to Morocco, I'm of the opinion of self determination, as is the global view based on the United Nations, who recognizes self-determination as the right of all peoples to freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural development

That's the same, whether it's Gibraltar, Scotland, Cornwall, the Canary Islands, Ceuta, Taiwan, Falklands, Cyprus, Texas, Point Roberts, Crimea, Canada, Greenland, etc etc.

We can argue about the thresholds needed, the length of time of residence ("squatters rights" etc), the minimum size of a given area, but the principal remains.

unkeen•29m ago
If it belongs to the people who live there, why does Britain have any say in their matters?
rmunn•20m ago
Why does Britain have any say in the people who live in, say, Liverpool? Because that's historically been British territory. So what's the difference? Only real difference I can see is length of history (a few hundred years vs. nearly a thousand years). But as far as I'm concerned, a few hundred years vs. nearly a thousand years doesn't make much difference. I'd argue that any territory that has belonged to country X for longer than all of its inhabitants have been alive has a pretty fair claim to be historical territory of country X, and should continue being part of country X unless there's a very good reason otherwise. (Such as a valid treaty, a clear referendum, and so on).

It gets all complicated and messy when war is involved, of course. I'm talking about peaceful transfers of ownership here.

unkeen•9m ago
So you’re suggesting amnesia and ignoring the fact that Gibraltar wasn’t a blank spot on the map before it was annexed by the British. I think that’s a very one-sided view.
maccard•12m ago
Gibraltar have had two referendums on whether they want to be a part of Spain or the UK, and they have voted with an absolutely insane majority to choose to be part of the UK in both cases. This isn't like Brexit, or Scotland's IndyRef - there was a 96% turnout and a 99% vote in favour of the UK in 1967, and an 88% turnout with a 99% vote in favour again in 2002.
manarth•10m ago
Because the people who live there overwhelmingly (98%–99%) vote in favour of remaining British.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref...

PaulRobinson•20m ago
The British government have a strong, well-established (since ~1950), and arguably inflexible attitude towards "right to self-determination".

Meaning: the people who live in a place get to decide who governs them and their society.

People in Gibraltar, The Falklands, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland all have different wants, needs and asks of the UK, and the UK honours all of them. There are other overseas territories with different relationships, plus the Commonwealth too.

If that ask changes (and in Northern Ireland it likely will in our lifetimes, the others less so), the governance will change.

Sometimes there is an ask for a closer relationship through the British Commonwealth (such as South Africa). Sometimes there is an ask for the UK to go away, thanks but no thanks (such as Malta). Each relationship is handled individually, but through a lens of self-determination. That's the priority in the FCO, in Parliament, in UK media. If a tiny nation wants to be British, the UK will go to war over it despite it making little sense (Falklands). If a tiny nation wants independence despite tactical advantage for UK to keep it, independence will be fought for (Malta happened, Diego Garcia is a WIP - watch this space). Where there is division (Northern Ireland), the majority view is observed, but with democratic and cultural structures created to try and make sure minority views have a voice in that governance.

That said, there is a caveat: observance of treaties tend to over-ride local preference in some cases, so if there is a legal argument to ignore the wishes of the locals, those wishes may be ignored: Hong Kong is the most prominent example of this in recent times (locals seemed to want to stay British, China said the 100-year agreement was up and there'd be no renewal, end of, so China it became).

Diego Garcia is another example, which has got messy because of the Whitehouse not understanding the UK's perverse inclination towards local democracy and the right to self-determination (see also non-UK entities the Whitehouse has not understood well: Greenland, absurd noises about Canada, and so on).

When able, the UK has consistently been committed to restoring governance to a local population's preferred model peacefully since ~1950 (India being the last real mess), and if the people of Gibraltar want to be governed by the Spanish, they'd be governed by the Spanish within ~2-3 years.

The idea that local people should have no say in this because "it's obvious" who "they belong to", is the colonialist notion here. A land isn't about geography. It's about people. It took a long time for the UK to understand this. Eventually they did. Most European colonial powers did. Others are still trying to catch up, it seems.

ggm•39m ago
A reminder the british government explored handing the Falklands over to Argentina before the war. Fisheries and oil, have changed the view but in times last it was not inconceivable to transfer authority.
Tuna-Fish•33m ago
> Fisheries and oil, have changed the view

No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%.

Oil was found later, the fisheries were never worth maintaining the island for.

Laurel1234•25m ago
> No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%.

The Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk also voted to be part of Russia and not Ukraine, crazy stuff.

arethuza•33m ago
I'm pretty sure that if the Argentinians hasn't invaded they would probably have the Falklands by now. As it is it I would think that it would be political suicide for any UK government to even contemplate any kind of deal.
ChocolateGod•35m ago
To be fair, the situation of the Falklands is very different to Gibraltar.

The Falklands were never Argentinian. The "native" inhabitants are the ones currently living there.

Laurel1234•28m ago
Love that since you realise your position is untenable, you just refuse to address it so it doesn't evince how untenable your other positions are.

Must give props to English honesty though, most people would be savvy enough to come up with some sophism to cover this reprehensible chain of thought. But it's so ingrained in your minds that you have some divine right to your unlawful colonial holdings you just won't even bother.

PD: get the fuck out of Ireland and allow their Scots their referendum.

dontwannahearit•39m ago
The Basque region wants a word...
Cyph0n•38m ago
It would also be great if Ceuta and Melilla returned back to Morocco, and if Western Sahara in turn gained its independence from Morocco.

As an aside, I have always found it ironic how Spain continuously whines about Gibraltar while doing the exact same thing to Morocco. At the very least, Spain was smart/lucky enough to lobby the UN early on to not include Ceuta and Melilla in the decolonization list.

froidpink•24m ago
Ceuta was never Moroccan. In fact, Morocco didn't even exist when Ceuta became part of Portugal first (1415) and then Spain (either 1580 or 1640). Ceuta was a part of the Spanish Visigoth kingdom in the 7th Century before the Islamic Conquest (which for some reason we don't call colonisation). Ceuta has always had a strong connection with the rulers of Iberia.

Gibraltar, on the other hand, was just lost in the War of Spanish succession to the British Empire, and has had a British connection to them since then, but never before

PaulRobinson•14m ago
Not according to the people who live there. Or in fact, Spain, who ceded it to the UK hundreds of years ago.

Or do you think Spain has a legal right based on geographic proximity to enforce a culture on those people despite existing treaties, laws, culture and democracy?

pjc50•35m ago
The UK will eventually demand the return of freedom of movement of people and goods, for exactly the same reasons as it entered the EU in the first place. Might take another 20 years though.
was_a_dev•32m ago
> freedom of movement to the EU (that the British hated so much)

A generalisation that only applied to, at most, 52% of the voting British public

SideburnsOfDoom•24m ago
> at most, 52% of the voting British public

Indeed. And, At a point in time ten years ago. In voters who heavily skewed older.

See the Voter Flow diagram: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1pj8kzd/voters_and_...

was_a_dev•16m ago
What a brilliantly depressing graphic
darkwater•27m ago
Looks like we have a lot of British "nationalists" leavers downvoting everything here. I mean, you comment is basically a fact: Brexit implied losing Schengen, it was part of it from day 0. Putting back Gibraltar in Schengen is a defeat for Brexit supporters.
rjsw•24m ago
The UK was not in Schengen when it was a member of the EU.